Advice on downhill curves?

[TheCafeKid]

And I'm going to not call BS, but advise against trail braking with the rear brake.
Guys you see on the track are seasoned pros. Watch those bikes squirm and slide before they tip in (and sometimes even while they're tipping in!) to the corner. They know EXACTLY how much brake to use, and EXACTLY when to use it and let off of it.

Look, I know that MSF instructors, books, common sense etc tell you to brake with both, and evenly. But the simple fact of the matter is that most of us "non-aliens" (people like Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo etc are known as "Aliens" because they can seemingly defy the laws of physics on a regular basis on the track) can't honestly concentrate on modulating both front and rear brakes, setting your line, your speed, seeing and avoiding possible hazards, tip in, maintenance throttle etc. In a panic situation, what ends up happening to a LOT of guys who use the rear brake for trail braking is they end up locking it up, and then when the bike starts to slide in the rear they freak and let go of the brake and the tire hooks up and they high side.

Personally, I don't touch my rear brake except to hold the bike at a stop, or to help me slow in a straight line if I've got the extra weight of a passenger. Never. In the twisties, I keep my revs up, and I use the compression braking and front brakes (and with the ZRX that's all you really need anyway, though I know with a GS sometimes the brakes are near worthless...which is how I learned to ride fast without brakes...hahaha) the ball of my right foot never leaves the peg to reach for that brake pedal. It's death IMO. I know not everyone will agree, and that's fine, everyone has their way and I'm not saying there's is wrong. I'm just saying that I've seen, witnessed and felt what happens when you stomp that rear and let go in a panic. Fortunately I didn't high side, but it got real scary real quick.

Bottom line is, IMO, either stay off the rear, or mash it and leave it mashed and know that the bike is gonna squirm and slide but should slide in a fairly straight line.

 

[TheCafeKid]

I'm gonna call BS on this one.
I use the front brakes all the time, uphill, downhill, heeled way over, whatever. Never had a bike stand up straight. Ever.

I will agree. But for a newer rider, who may not understand that you must be gentle with brakes when heeled over, it's good advice to set the turn up and brake BEFORE you lean it.
And lots of racers actually use braking when cranked over hard. I believe it was Freddie Spencer who perfected the art of being both on the from brake and on the throttle at the same time to effectively shorten the forks and quicken steering. But it's not something I'd practice anywhere except on a track.

I've always thought of the tires like a scale. You have say, 100 points on each wheel. When accelerating, and cornering, the majority of those "traction points" are used up to do so. Say 75 out of the 100. Leaving you only 25 points available for braking before you run out of points and the front wheel tucks under and you eat asphalt. When Braking with the bike upright, the scale swigs to the other side. The tire is using the majority of the points to reel the bike in weight transfer to the front will increase traction, but if you suddenly have to lean the bike while the traction points are being sucked up by slowing the bike down, you don't have much left for it to corner on. Kind of silly perhaps, but that's how I explain it when someone asks something like "How will I know when I can brake inside a corner" or something like that...

 

[7981GS]

Personally, I don't touch my rear brake except to hold the bike at a stop, or to help me slow in a straight line if I've got the extra weight of a passenger. Never. In the twisties, I keep my revs up, and I use the compression braking and front brakes (and with the ZRX that's all you really need anyway, though I know with a GS sometimes the brakes are near worthless...which is how I learned to ride fast without brakes...hahaha) the ball of my right foot never leaves the peg to reach for that brake pedal. It's death IMO.

That is simply dangerous!
How many times have you crashed doing that?

Eric

 

[TheCafeKid]

That is simply dangerous!
How many times have you crashed doing that?

Eric

Actually the only time I've crashed was BECAUSE I was on the rear brake.
Explain to me why you *think* it's dangerous. Because everyone has told you that it is? Because YOU don't feel comfortable braking only with the front brakes? Because what?

Just as many people say that using the rear brake is safer than not, I can show you as many people who say it isn't, and show you plenty of videos that plainly display just how dangerous using the rear brake can be if you don't use it correctly. And I'm sure youve seen dozens of videos of cruiser/chopper riders who ONLY use the rear brake and go sliding into a car or off the side of the road.

Your rear brake only provides 20%-30% of your stopping power at best. Couple that with the fact that most rear brakes, especially modern ones on featherweight super sport bikes can easily overpower the rear wheel before they actually help you slow down and it's fairly useless.

Today's modern brakes on the front are so powerful they're really all you need unless you're in a full panic stop, and as I said, in that case, you mash the rear and leave it mashed.

I'm not saying anyone who uses the rear brake is incorrect in doing so. I'm saying *I* don't use it and listed my reasons and opinions as to why. So I invite you to give your reasons and opinions as to why you think it's so dangerous and we can leave it at that. It won't turn into an argument, because you're not going to change my mind and I have no desire to try to change yours. You ride how you ride, and I'll ride how I ride, and everyones happy.

 

[7981GS]

So, what advice you you have on downhill curves, which already transfer weight to the front wheel? Things I should practice and consider?

Don't listen to anyone that doesn't use BOTH the front and rear brakes. Simple.

Take a MSF course or refresher/advanced course if you have to.


Eric

 

[EvilEnfield]

...because if the front locks up and starts to slide away from you then it's almost impossible to get it back, you're going to crash, if the back does the same thing then it's a lot easier to gain control of. This is a response to a bloke that wants to ride safely, he's not in training for the TT.

 

[TheCafeKid]

Don't listen to anyone that doesn't use BOTH the front and rear brakes. Simple.

Take a MSF course or refresher/advanced course if you have to.


Eric

Just like every other comment you've interjected into someone else's post, you spout off at the mouth and then have nothing to back it up.

To the OP, do what makes you most comfortable and confident. If you do things that make you uncomfortable, you won't be relaxed when riding, and THAT is seriously dangerous.

As to your question about keeping your upper body loose, I mean that you shouldn't ride with weight on your arms, your arms locked and tight and your upper body all stiff. Doing so can make your steering and small command motions stuff and "herky-jerky". Smooth is safe, smooth is fast.
Usually, slow into the corner is faster out of the corner.

 

[TheCafeKid]

...because if the front locks up and starts to slide away from you then it's almost impossible to get it back, you're going to crash, if the back does the same thing then it's a lot easier to gain control of.

Well, first of all, if you actually practice "panic" stops, you wont lock up the front wheel. Braking should be done by squeezing the lever and modulating it. Not grabbing a handful and smashing it. THAT'S how you lock up a wheel.
Like a trigger of a gun, you don't pull, you squeeze.

Second of all, if you lock up the rear wheel and it starts to slide out and you release the brake, there's a decent chance that when it hooks up and regains traction it could toss you off the high side. I dunno bout you, but I'd rather slide into a lowside if I'm going to crash than get ejected...maybe that's just me.

 

[EvilEnfield]

Well, first of all, if you actually practice "panic" stops, you wont lock up the front wheel. Braking should be done by squeezing the lever and modulating it. Not grabbing a handful and smashing it. THAT'S how you lock up a wheel.
Like a trigger of a gun, you don't pull, you squeeze.

Second of all, if you lock up the rear wheel and it starts to slide out and you release the brake, there's a decent chance that when it hooks up and regains traction it could toss you off the high side. I dunno bout you, but I'd rather slide into a lowside if I'm going to crash than get ejected...maybe that's just me.

I agree, but, it doesn't take much to get it wrong with the front wheel, as you said yourself the front provides 70% of your braking ability, why not advise on the side of caution, front brake gently until you feel the front dip, a little back brake together with the front, slow and smooth, give yourself plenty of time to get round any corner, keep your revs up, etc. My main advice would be slow down around roads that you don't know and practice.

 

[TheCafeKid]

I agree, but, it doesn't take much to get it wrong with the front wheel, as you said yourself the front provides 70% of your braking ability, why not advise on the side of caution, front brake gently until you feel the front dip, a little back brake together with the front, slow and smooth, give yourself plenty of time to get round any corner, keep your revs up, etc. My main advice would be slow down around roads that you don't know and practice.

Like I said, I'm not telling anyone they're wrong for using the rear brake. Mr Eric/Danielle/whatever proclaimed that not using it is seriously dangerous, and suggested that I have crashed many times because of it. I've never crashed from not using the rear brake, and most people's reasoning behind why not using the rear brake is "seriously dangerous" is completely flawed, regurgitated instruction from MSF instructors or "learn how to ride" books or videos. While I think it's important that new riders should learn how to use the rear brake properly, as well as the front, and when to use it etc, I personally don't find it either necessary or particularly useful in my riding except in full panic stop situations where it would be locked and stay locked if I felt I needed to use it.
As I said earlier, *most* riders cannot concentrate on the large number of tasks they must perform in an emergency stop/emergency slow and still correctly modulate BOTH front and rear brake. I include myself in that generalization as well. Therefore, I choose not to use the rear brake to lessen the chance of me making a severe mistake with it when pushing hard in the twisties.

As far as the rest of your post, I could not agree more. Any time you're on unfamiliar roads, learning or practicing something new to your skillset, or trying to sharpen ones you already use, practice is everything, and slowing down a bit is simply more safe. While I will readily admit that I ride pretty hard compared to some people, and I take liberties with suggested speed limits when I'm out away from civilization, I will say that I try to be a safe, courteous, and otherwise law abiding rider. I dont pass on the double yellow no matter how much I may want to, or unless the guy in front of me waves me around. I don't dart in and out of traffic, cutting people off and being needlessly aggressive, I don't run stop signs, (on purpose anyway...sometimes they are hidden behind trees around here and you don't see em till you're right on top of the intersection..) and I don't ride with people who act like squirmy squiddly douche bags.

That is all for me

 

[JimmyR]

Well I'm probably less qualified to talk on these matters than anyone else here! But I am a firm believer in using both front and rear brakes, but for different times. I used to only use the front but have found that the rear brake is incredibly useful at times. My riding instructor warned me not to just use the front all the time or I would get into trouble. And for slow speed moves the rear is gentler and more predictable than the front.

For something just as simple as slowing to a stop on a straight road, I wash off most of the speed by gently using the front, then as I slow I use the rear and can really feel it helping to slow the bike. Then as I stop it's practically all rear. Contrary to popular opinion I have found the rear brake on my GS1100G to be very useful and have plenty of bite.

Enjoying the exchange of opinions here guys! Learning a lot about riding faster than I ever intend to. I trust my bike, I just don't trust the roads and those who have been using them before me. You can have the best cornering technique in the world, but if a truck just leaked diesel all over the road underneath you it will make life intensely interesting for a second.

 

[tkent02]

I agree, but, it doesn't take much to get it wrong with the front wheel, as you said yourself the front provides 70% of your braking ability, why not advise on the side of caution, front brake gently until you feel the front dip, a little back brake together with the front, slow and smooth, give yourself plenty of time to get round any corner, keep your revs up, etc. My main advice would be slow down around roads that you don't know and practice.

Whoever came up with the 70% number doesn't know how it works. It might be 70% some of the time. Sometimes it's 50%, there's not much weight shifting forward on ice. THere's also not much weight shifting when you are cornering and heeled over far enough that you can't use much brakes at all. Sometimes it's 99% or 100%, as in the modern bike with huge brakes stopping straight ahead.

Back to the downhill mountain road scenario. I'd take a low side from the front wheel locking over a high side throwing me off a cliff any day. If I'm so too fast in a long curve that there's almost no braking available, and I need to brake, it's the front I trust to do most of the braking, my fingers are smarter and smoother than my clunky old boots. I normally use them both in corners, more front, some rear.
But if I'm that fast in a long curve, I screwed up long ago.
All bikes are different, a sport bike won't be needing the rear brake when the rear wheel is almost in the air, some bikes have linked brakes, some have terrible brakes, like a stock GS with original pads. There is no one technique that works the best in all conditions for every rider of every skill level.

But every rider will do well to go in slower than he normally would when playing in the curves on a down hill road.

 

[tkent02]

Bottom line is, IMO, either stay off the rear, or mash it and leave it mashed and know that the bike is gonna squirm and slide but should slide in a fairly straight line.

Now this is scary. How is mashing the rear, leaving it mashed and having the rear wheel slide in a straight line going to work out for you in a long corner that you are already too fast into anyway?

Staying off the rear would be better but braking correctly with both would give a lot better results.

 

[Woodsy]

i've always been taught to brake before the corner, turn in and accelerate out. If you have to brake midcorner then you went in too hot, you never stop learning how to ride a motorbike and i have also had to jump on the brakes mid corner before when a rider coming the other way crossed the white line.

I use the front and rear brakes in a situation like that but i dont use them in a way that would make me stop, i use them in a way that gives me more options on which way to go, i feel when i hit the brakes like that the bike automatically wants to stand up straight ( well it did on my little 250 ) which gives me the options to go either direction. Its all good to talk about it but its not till you have to use it in that Split second, and lets face it it really is a split second that you really get to use it and everyone would react differently.

Does that make sense? lol

 

[airbornespud]

pmong, i wouldn't worry too much about which brake to use in a corner or trying to incorporate advanced riding techniques into your daily pleasure rides. just practice the basics and you'll be fine. i think some people have gotten a little carried away and need to keep the original post in mind. proper basic cornering will get you through about 99.9% of your daily road riding. good body position and entry speed is all you need to worry about until you get comfortable enough to feel like you can push it in the corners. then come back and start a new thread about advanced cornering technique.

 

[Baatfam]

Don't listen to anyone that doesn't use BOTH the front and rear brakes. Simple.

Eric

Did my first track day last year...
The very first thing our instructors told us, as beginners, is to never, never use the rear brake...to forget it was even there...
I listened...

That said...I do use the rear under normal conditions on the street. And when riding two up, I'll trail brake into the corners all day long...

 

[FiremanBob]

There is a lot of good advice outside the controversy over which brake to use.

An old racer's saying is still true: It's better to go into the turn slow and come out fast, than to go in fast and come out dead.

Griffin hit on a really key point: be in a lower gear and at higher RPM. The engine braking effect is similar to using the rear brake but is much more flexible and easy to modulate. The bike should slow rapidly when you roll off the throttle, just as if you used the brake.

If you try to coast through the turn in a high gear at low revs, the front brake will do all the work, fighting gravity, speed and the engine. At high revs, you turn the engine into an ally.

This is in addition to making sure you turn your head, look as far through the corner as you can, keep your arms/shoulders relaxed, keep your weight to the inside, and don't be afraid to lean the bike. The bike is leaning much less than you feel it is.

 

[Tim Tom]

Pmong,

Since you are re-learning riding, I'd recommend that you take the time to actively brush up your skills. Pick up Lee Park's book "Total Control" and give it a very thorough read. He explains in good detail, proper techniques for faster, and safer street riding. The book is easy and fun to read, and will really help your riding skills improve. It definitely helped me. It's also pretty cheap on amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Control-Performance-Street-Techniques/dp/0760314039

 

[dpep]

Almost everyone underestimates the effect that a slope has on braking distances. Compared to braking on flat ground, you can brake what feels like a lot and not really be much slower than you were before. Braking before the curve needs to be done sooner, and harder than you might realize. Braking while in the curve does much less than you are used to as well. It is very easy to overcook a downhill curve. Another factor is that you will be a little bit off in your steering, since the angles and dangles all look a little different than you are used to. And, you can't use as much power in the curve as you are used to, the bike is accelerating so much faster down the hill anyway. Some steep long curves you can't use power at all without going too fast for the last part of the curve.

The moral of the story?
Very simple really.
Haul ass up hill, go slow downhill.

The key to safety when going down steeply inclined curves is to keep your revs up. Way up. Most GSes redline around 9,000-10,000 rpm. Keep your revs in the 6-9K range. Due to heavy flywheels, the engine braking can be more effective going downhill than disc brakes.

Relying too much on your brakes will cause them to overheat and lose effectiveness. They'll get mushy and barely slow you down at all. Keep your revs up, look through the curve, and never, ever, use your front brake while heeled over halfway through the curve, especially going downhill. Your bike will stand up straight and over the edge you'll go.

There has been a lot of interesting discussion on cornering in this thread but I think these two posts best address the OP's original request which was for advice on handling downhill curves.

I made the very same request on this forum myself no more than a couple of years ago. I have been riding for a half century or so without any significant lapses, but except for a few days out of each year all of my riding since the early 70's has been in Florida. The state actually does have some back roads with a curve or two (mostly along or around its surface water bodies). But elevation changes greater than an Interstate ramp are almost non existent. When I go up to a ride in NC or WV it takes me a while to adjust my 'perspective' and feel confident. Most of it is like roller skating--it comes back pretty easily. But not so downhill curves--I ain't judged one of those mothers right yet.

I agree with tkent that there is a natural tendency to underestimate the effect of gravity and I think the only way to overcome it is with experience (a.k.a. practice). Bike + rider may be well in excess of 700 lbs. It doesn't take much slope for matters to quickly get outside of your best intentions.

The best I have come up with so far is low gear/high revs and careful (gradual) use of the rear break. And of course slow way down before starting the curve. And it may be obvious but important enough to emphasize, get into that low gear and let out on the clutch BEFORE the turn, not during.
...

 

[MisterCinders]

Following this debate with interest.

I am still a noob rider, and Chicago is flat as a pancake. For fun, I will hop on the bike and ride 40 minutes out just to get some elevation changes to ride through.

A recent trip on that route confirmed my level of newbie/wussy riding. There is a short mile or two of windy curvy road that is a popular Sunday drive spot for bikes, etc. they call the "Ravines." The speed limit is like 20 mph because the curves are really tight and blind. Even at slow speeds, however, it's a scenic and fun little stretch. It really sucks to get to the start and have a mini-van or SUV infront of you, as they really have to slow it down, and you end up putt-putting at 10mph through the thing.

A week or so ago, I am heading through and some dude on a Yamaha sport bike (R6 or R1?) is behind me. Happily there are no cars or vans to bog things down. Except me, I am the old lady, down shifting into each blind curve and still going pretty slow (25-30 maybe). So Yamaha guy passes me after the roads straighten out. At the next light a mile or so further down, I pull up to him and literally apologize, noting that I should have let him pass me just before the Ravines, since my skittish riding pretty much screwed him over.