another sucker with snapped exhaust bolts - i really did a number

[shwaz]

hi folks. so i decided to learn by doing (it the wrong way)! hooray!

i got it in my head the other night that i wanted to remove my pipes to clean off rust. so yeah, i'm joining the club.

i'm guilty and not a little embarrassed of not stopping after the first bolt snapped. so i'm 3 for 8 on clean removals - have 5 snapped bolts sticking out of my header. (you can applaud now)

I read a bunch of posts last night about different options and how other folks have approached this.

Welding:
unfortunately, i don't have access to any welding equipment, so welding a nut onto the end is not an option for me off the bat.

Drilling:
i got pretty far into drilling out one of them. The hole was not perfectly centered, so it's down to the threads on one side and still some material showing on the other side. starting using an easy out and my neighbor (whose shop i'm using) said he was nervous about it snapping off. thank god, as i've since read numerous posts about how often that happens and turns a bad situation worse.
I guess the question is, what would you do now (see photo of bolt "#2" below)

Angle / raising or lowering the engine:
one of the biggest difficulties that I see off the bat with drilling is getting a clean line - the frame is in the way on a lot of them. I read something about using a jack to raise the engine and had a question there:
a) position the jack, using a 2x4 to cushion. should i be placing that under the oil pan (i don't see what other options there are, just want to check to make sure that can support the weight)
b) release the engine mount bolts
c) raise or lower the engine slightly to allow a better line to the snapped bolt heads
do i have to do anything else? remove the tank? disconnect shaft? or is there a bit of wiggle room for the engine once it's unmounted from the frame

strategy:
taking a step back from the drilling i started doing last night, am i headed in the right direction? or should i try something else before attempting to drill and collapse? (note that ALL of this is new for me - this is my first bike, i've only owned for 6 months, and while I'm "handy" enough, this is just new territory for me)
I read a lot about applying heat but all I can easily get is propane. will that be hot enough to help out here?
I saw some comments about dripping wax on the exposed thread but didn't really get that... just apply the torch after and the wax will try to run up the threads and get into the corroded areas?
I'll pick up some PB Blaster first thing after work - was using wd-40 last night :/ so hopefully that will help a bit too.


Anyway, that pretty much covers it i think. just curious to hear what opinions there are. I know this is pretty well thrashed out topic, but you know, misery and company and all that.

I put some pictures in below to show some more detail. I look forward to any comments.

sincere thanks and regards,
aaron



in order from left to right, facing front of bike:
#2
on the right side. this is the first bolt we went after. you can see how it's been cleared down to the threads on teh left side, but there's still some bolt left on the right

#3
not shown

#5 and 6
haven't touched these yet. each has probably 5mm exposed.

#8
started drilling this out too, also off center a bit. stopped last night when i realized that #2 wasn't coming out, so I wasn't sure if I should continue with this one.

 

[janner]

Jeez mate !!!! If I got that deep into trouble I,d get another head and use that one for spares, and when you do get to putting new studs in , use copper grease on the threads to help stop this in future, good luck...think you,ll need it !!

 

[GateKeeper]

lots of heat, lots of patience, go slow, take your time, work on one bolt at a time, don't force it, that will kill your efforts, and so will rushing it. you have a fighting chance on your for sure, look at one of the threads the one guy used to remove his busted bolt, I think it will work for you perfectly....

it was Redneck

here is the post - http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1565046&postcount=216




ohhh and seal up those exhaust ports a bit better, you don't want those metal shavings getting inside the engine.....


.

 

[shwaz]

lots of heat, lots of patience, go slow, take your time, work on one bolt at a time, don't force it, that will kill your efforts, and so will rushing it. you have a fighting chance on your for sure, look at one of the threads the one guy used to remove his busted bolt, I think it will work for you perfectly....

it was Redneck

here is the post - http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1565046&postcount=216
.

I'm curious if people have had luck using propane - does that constitute "lots of heat"? It's all I have on hand, along with a generic hardware store kind of tip.

going to try to avoid the easy-out tool used in Redneck's example unless the heat drastically loosens things up. put one in last night and it didn't budge, i'm sure it would have snapped if i'd put more torque on it.

 

[bccap]

There is lots of good info on this site for bolt extraction. Which of course I can't find right now. On the first one, try a dental pick to get the pieces out. On the others, it appears you have some bolt to work with. Try heating the bolt { somewhere in one of the threads it tells you which color bottles are the hot ones } Spray with PB blaster, whack the bolt good and hard, and try working the bolt in and out with vise grips. Were you drilling with left hand drill bits ? Do a search using titles and you should find lots of useful info.

 

[GateKeeper]

There are yellow bottles available, that will give you the higher temp....there was talk of melting wax into the threads as well......lots of ideas, and things you can try, just take it slow

 

[hampshirehog]

Use easy outs with extreme caution and use the biggest size that will fit, If the easy out snaps you are worse off than before you started (and a lot of people snap easy outs).

 

[tkent02]

750/850 heads are cheap and easy to find... Why bother?
I have a couple kicking around here that I'll never use.
Looks like you need some new gaskets here and there anyway.

 

[1_v8_merc]

Propane will work perfectly fine.
As for the length of time to heat the bolt...I've never counted, but I'd say about 2 minutes? Give or take?

If that doesn't help, you'll need to get a Tap/Dye set.
(If the busted bolt has already been drilled threw but it still remains stuck in the threads)
And you just attempt to re-thread the hole, only you use the same Tap Thread it's already designed for, which usually clears out the metal Stuck in the threads.
(normally when rethreading, you would go 1 size up, but sometimes you can get lucky and re-catch the old threads)

I had to do this for my Oil cover bolts.

 

[Rover]

I'm about to tackle a couple for the first time. As you stated the down tubes are in the way.I'm going to remove the engine,get some quality drill bits of various sizes and make sure to drill as close to center as possible.Do not want to damage the threads.Don't want to make the problem worse.

 

[shwaz]

750/850 heads are cheap and easy to find... Why bother?
I have a couple kicking around here that I'll never use.
Looks like you need some new gaskets here and there anyway.

i think i just need new gaskets in the header cover

(new screen capture software, couldn't resist )

i understand that taking off the header cover and opening up / taking off the header itself are VERY different things....
but yeah, i might have to go that route. still hoping i can resolve this without tearing down the whole engine.

how much does a head go for, though, just fmi?

 

[shwaz]

I'm about to tackle a couple for the first time. As you stated the down tubes are in the way.I'm going to remove the engine,get some quality drill bits of various sizes and make sure to drill as close to center as possible.Do not want to damage the threads.Don't want to make the problem worse.

talk to me a bit about this ...

what needs to get disconnected (other than the engine mounts connecting it to the frame) in order for the engine to be removed?

update: i guess it's outlined in my manual, now that i bothered to open the damn thing
looks fairly extensive as well.

you have any thoughts about the feasibility of just unscrewing the engine from the frame and trying to raise/lower/angle it by and inch in a direction to clear up a straight line for the drill?

 

[hampshirehog]

Carbs, exhausts (already off) and unplug the electrics. Get the tank out of the way undo the mounting bolts / plates and out she comes. An hour if you get a move on.

 

[tatu]

I'm about to tackle a couple for the first time. As you stated the down tubes are in the way.I'm going to remove the engine,get some quality drill bits of various sizes and make sure to drill as close to center as possible.Do not want to damage the threads.Don't want to make the problem worse.

I have found using a center drill as used on a lathe is an excellent way of finding and centering before drilling in as you can manipulate it if you are off center. With ordinary drills you have to be pretty much spot on from the start and if its off center thats it, its off center. The center drill is so short there is no flex.

 

[Guest]

With so many broken bolts you'll have the opportunity to perfect the procedure for the fix. Whatever you do, take your time and really plan out any action you take to keep yourself from ending up in a worse position. You can only drill so deep without doing far worse damage.

 

[Guest]

I had the same issue on the '78 GS550. 2 of the bolts snapped off. On one, my son was able to weld a small piece of steel bar on to what was left of the bolt and that worked. I know you said you don't have/own a welder. Ask around, there may be a friend of a friend who can help.
On the second one, there wasn't enough bolt left to weld to. We drilled out a good amount of the original bolt, maybe leaving about 20% of it. We then used an extractor and SLOWLY took our time and found that by SLOWLY working it in and using a small pair of vise grips on the extractor, we were able to get it to unscrew out.
However, we accidently buggered up one side of the threads. We used a tap n die set, with the engine still on the bike, and were able to redo the threads.
My only advice is to go slowly, be patient and some times you just have to walk away for a day and come back to it. Hang in there!!

 

[1_v8_merc]

Jersey City is not that far from me.

I have a welder and all the tools.
The only problem is, I'm probably going to be busy this weekend doing a clutch and other crap

 

[shwaz]

With so many broken bolts you'll have the opportunity to perfect the procedure for the fix.

thank you. i love this sentiment and have already shared it with a few friends

 

[shwaz]

Jersey City is not that far from me.

I have a welder and all the tools.
The only problem is, I'm probably going to be busy this weekend doing a clutch and other crap

that's awesome and really kind of you. i will definitely keep that in reserve and i may take you up on your hospitality at a later date for some other upcoming projects if that's cool. i'll send a pm later on.

for the good news, i'm now 3 / 5 done!
the bike's across the street at my neighbor who happens to be a machinist. while he doesn't have any welding equipment, he does have every drill bit ever made and a nice lift and equipment and a great workspace.

we continued on the drilling out we started last night and i'm pleased to say that 3 of teh 5 have been drilled out and the holes retapped. perhaps not quite as elegant as being able to actually unscrew the bolts, but eff it, they're out and the flanges can attach to 3 exhaust ports!

2 more bolts (both on teh same port) left to tackle. will probably start working on it tomorrow night or sunday. with luck, i might be able to get this all done without pulling the engine or anything. find some studs and never deal with this crap again

until the next time, that is.

anyway, gotta run, just wanted to update. thanks everyone for their words and advice.

cheers,

aaron

 

[7981GS]

Nice to have good neighbors and friend's.

I hope that you are planning on repaying his expertise some way.
Perhaps a good night out for him and his Wife/GF?

Daniel