Cam Degreeing or not

[gs11ezrydr]

How important is it to degree a set of drop in Web Cams in a GS1150 .340 lift or even a set of .348 lift. Would it increase H.P. or just move the power band around..Thanks..I know Web recommends degreeing all there cams.Is it a power thing or a safety measure? Thanks..

 

[zed1015]

You need to degree them timed at the figures they quote for the power characteristics they claim.
Just bolting them in on stock sprockets may leave them advanced or retarded a degree or so.
The profile is usually ground pretty close to the stock cam sprocket mount but tooling wear etc can't guarantee that it's spot on so degreeing is the only way to get it correct.
The LC method is easy and straight forward and worth learning if you want to play with the effect of closing the centers etc without lining somebody else's pocket.

 

[Guest]

Is it a power thing or a safety measure? Thanks..

I'm sure there is some of both in that recommendation.

First, stock cam timing can be all over the place. There is plenty of tolerance stack up and wear available to significantly alter it from the design numbers. You should realize that the cams turn 1/2 the speed of the crankshaft. Cam timing is measured at the crank, so a 1 degree change at the crank is 0.5 degrees at the cam. That is a very small amount of play but is big enough to noticeably affect how the engine runs.

Second, it makes no sense to me to spend the money for aftermarket cams and then not bother to degree them. You spent real $$$ to get a high performance part for your bike and now you want to cheap out on the installation and possibly compromise the performance of the expensive part you just bought?

If you have never degreed cams you will be amazed by how much you can alter the character of the motor with only a small change. IMO, it is absolutely worth the time required to do it.


Mark

 

[RustyTank]

GS11ezrydr, are your Web Cam cams new or used?

 

[RustyTank]

The LC method is easy and straight forward and worth learning if you want to play with the effect of closing the centers etc without lining somebody else's pocket.

Can you expand on what the LC method is? Or, if you have a link you can drop that would be super helpful.

 

[slayer61]

I think what zed is referring to, is the "lobe center" method whereby you would roll forward until you get .040" of valve lift and note degree wheel. Go at it from the other side until you get .040" valve lift and note degree wheel. Lobe center is the mathematical difference between the two

ie https://www.cpgnation.com/finding-the-intake-lobe-centerline/

 

[zed1015]

Yes! i was referring to the lobe center method of timing the cams.
Here's a link to one of many sites that give you the lowdown and much quicker than me typing it all out.
Web Cam Racing Cams Inc. / Degreeing (webcamshafts.com)
Despite what the makers say you can use any valve clearance you like ( even negative ) when you do the calcs but be sure to use the same clearance throughout if doing comparisons with duration figures ,the final LC result will be the same.

 

[RustyTank]

How important is it to degree a set of drop in Web Cams? I know Web recommends degreeing all there cams.

I'll preface my comment with, the more I learn about degreeing cams and how important/helpful it can be, the more I'm inclined to just say yes, degree your cams.

That said, it may be worth it for you to call Web Cam and ask them directly. I recently purchased a used set of Web Cam brand Street Cams for my bike and wanted to make sure I knew what the manufacturer recommended, so I gave them a call. My cams are considered by Web Cam to be 'Bolt In' cams, which means, from their perspective the cams don't need to be degreed. In other words they can be installed like stock cams and should work just fine. That said, and I'm just repeating myself here, the more I learn about cam degreeing the more I'm thinking it would be a great skill to learn and is clearly the thorough way to install after market cams. Just my two cents.

Additionally, if your cams are used and you're not entirely sure whether they're in acceptable shape, you can send them to Web Cam and they'll take a look at them for you for the price of shipping. I'd give em a call first. I've found them to be super helpful.

 

[RustyTank]

I think what zed is referring to, is the "lobe center" method whereby you would roll forward until you get .040" of valve lift and note degree wheel. Go at it from the other side until you get .040" valve lift and note degree wheel. Lobe center is the mathematical difference between the two

ie https://www.cpgnation.com/finding-the-intake-lobe-centerline/

Yes! i was referring to the lobe center method of timing the cams.
Here's a link to one of many sites that give you the lowdown and much quicker than me typing it all out.
Web Cam Racing Cams Inc. / Degreeing (webcamshafts.com)
Despite what the makers say you can use any valve clearance you like ( even negative ) when you do the calcs but be sure to use the same clearance throughout if doing comparisons with duration figures ,the final LC result will be the same.

Thanks guys. This is super helpful info.

 

[gs11ezrydr]

GS11ezrydr, are your Web Cam cams new or used?

New..never been installed.. And thanks to all for the insight, I have a degree wheel,dial indicator,base and stand,piston stops,etc.I,m satisfied it's worth the time and money..I was just curious about others opinions..And if anyone ever experienced what happened just bolting them to stock sprockets,I'll slot the stockers a little or order a set of aftermarket sprockets...should make tuning a lot easier.. Thanks,

 

[RustyTank]

New..never been installed.. And thanks to all for the insight, I have a degree wheel,dial indicator,base and stand,piston stops,etc.I,m satisfied it's worth the time and money.

Oh nice dude. Sounds like you've got everything you need

 

[zed1015]

That said, it may be worth it for you to call Web Cam and ask them directly. I recently purchased a used set of Web Cam brand Street Cams for my bike and wanted to make sure I knew what the manufacturer recommended, so I gave them a call. My cams are considered by Web Cam to be 'Bolt In' cams, which means, from their perspective the cams don't need to be degreed. In other words they can be installed like stock cams and should work just fine.

I have to say that drop in cams refers to the fact that the the lift is such that the head does not need any clearance work around the bucket bores or cam cover for the cams to be "dropped straight in" and rotate freely .
They still need to be degreed in to achieve the exact listed timing specs.
Non drop in cams have lift that is so increased over stock that they won't rotate without the lobes hitting the head casting and clearance work is required.

 

[RustyTank]

I have to say that drop in cams refers to the fact that the the lift is such that the head does not need any clearance work around the bucket bores or cam cover for the cams to be "dropped straight in" and rotate freely .
They still need to be degreed in to achieve the exact listed timing specs.
Non drop in cams have lift that is so increased over stock that they won't rotate without the lobes hitting the head casting and clearance work is required.

Man, that is such good information. Thank you zed.

Can you, or someone else, suggest a cam degree kit? This question may be worth a post of it's own.

Sorry gs11ezrydr, I don't mean to hijack your thread

 

[rphillips]

Do you know what you want? Cam timing changes things quite a bit. Some settings will give more torque, (lower rpm power) and other settings give more max HP but at a higher rpm. Stock settings are usually kind'f in the middle.

 

[RustyTank]

Do you know what you want? Cam timing changes things quite a bit. Some settings will give more torque, (lower rpm power) and other settings give more max HP but at a higher rpm. Stock settings are usually kind'f in the middle.

How does one go about finding the settings for what they want?

 

[zed1015]

Man, that is such good information. Thank you zed.

Can you, or someone else, suggest a cam degree kit? This question may be worth a post of it's own.

Nobody does a complete kit as such because mounting on each engine is different..
Common items are a Degree disc and a dial indicator .
You will need to make up a suitable head mount for the dial indicator and a pointer that bolts to the ign housing for the degree wheel.
Timing figures are usually included when you buy the cams or most can be found online with a bit of searching.
if you do have a set of cams with no known settings you can either set them up between centres and work out the lift and duration then compare them to the closest known cams with similar figures and use their settings or set them up at the stock cam degrees which is usually around 110 degrees as a base line and go from there.

 

[RustyTank]

Nobody does a complete kit as such because mounting on each engine is different..
Common items are a Degree disc and a dial indicator .
You will need to make up a suitable head mount for the dial indicator and a pointer that bolts to the ign housing for the degree wheel.
Timing figures are usually included when you buy the cams or most can be found online with a bit of searching.
if you do have a set of cams with no known settings you can either set them up between centres and work out the lift and duration then compare them to the closest known cams with similar figures and use their settings or set them up at the stock cam degrees which is usually around 110 degrees as a base line and go from there.

Thanks much for the info zed. I've got a lot to learn in regard to this.

 

[Guest]

I've used stands like these in the past for cam degreeing, to hold the dial indicator: https://www.mcmaster.com/dial-indicator-stands/rigid-arm-magnetic-base-indicator-holders-10/

(Of course you need to make sure it's attached to a nearby ferrous piece of metal ...). Or you can fab your own, and find a good attachment point on the head.

A piece of welding rod works well for a degree wheel pointer. Use a set of needlenose pliers to make a loop, then bolt it to the side of your cases with a sidecover screw. Bend the rod to point where it needs to point.

You can make a piston stop pretty easily with an old spark plug; shatter the ceramic, cut off the electrode, and press in a piece of aluminum (round off the tip!) or delrin to contact the piston.

In my experience setup for degreeing cams is a big part of the job! Once you're set up things go pretty smoothly.

Fingers crossed for you!

 

[rphillips]

On my 16V GS1100E, lower LC #'s meant more torque (lower rpm power) & lower max HP. Higher LC #'s brought more max HP at higher rpm, but with less lower rpm power. I love torque, mine 16V GS1100E I set the cams at 107 LC for intake & 109 LC for exhaust. I don't have a clue if all engines work that way.

 

[timebombprod]

How does one go about finding the settings for what they want?

Do you like top speed or like to just get to speed quick, I would say the higher horsepower at a high rpm is just one of those great peaks and the torque makes it great for fooling around, and also probably better if you live in a well populated area.