In my opinion it's pretty pointless to ask how just bolting on has worked for someone else. The catch is that there seems to be huge tolerances in stock factory timing. I mean up to 10 degrees or so. So even if just bolting on has worked perfectly for someone there is no guarantee that your result would be anything similar.
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Cam Degreeing or not
- Thread starter gs11ezrydr
- Start date
In my opinion it's pretty pointless to ask how just bolting on has worked for someone else. The catch is that there seems to be huge tolerances in stock factory timing. I mean up to 10 degrees or so. So even if just bolting on has worked perfectly for someone there is no guarantee that your result would be anything similar.
slayer61
Forum Mentor
10 degrees? Really? You would be OVER 1 tooth off on a 30 tooth Suzuki GS1100 sprocket
Don't laugh....On early GSX1100's when changing the lobe center positions of standard cams, I've frequently had to install them with one pin less separation between the 2 and 3 marks.
When the OE inlet lobe center measures up at 118 degrees - and you want 108 degrees - slotting will only get you so far.
There is of course a written note of this given to the owners for future reference.
Later 1100's and the 1150's seem to have been a lot closer to where they should be.
I must have been lucky, Been so long I don't remember the #'s but neither of mine were nowhere near a tooth , or pin, off. I do remember I decided on 107 IN. & 109 EX., & that gave a ton of torque. I can't even remember what the OEM specs would have worked out to in terms of lobe center. Dang, all that was 40 birthdays ago.
I was doing probably two a month in the shop I had in the mid 80's. Dial the cams, a pipe I had made up to my specs locally and rejet the carbs.
The worst I remember was an inlet at 122 deg LC.
Do you remember what the Suzuki cam timing specs worked out to in terms of Lobe center. I remember having one of mine up to 115 or 117, but that raised the max HP rpm. way higher than I was comfortable with & lowered the torque quite a bit.
They varied a lot. All somewhere close to 118 inlet and 110 - 112 exhaust. I'd move them to 106/108 for road use. Huge torque increase in the midrange.
Much more suitable for NZ road conditions. And pretty good on short roadrace circuits too.
This is a very basic thing, and I'm sure y'all know this already, but it caused an embarrassing amount of confustication and bebotherment the first time I helped a friend degree a set of cams in his Kawasaki GPZ.
Some degree wheels have their primary markings in a full 360 degree circle, some in two 180 degree halves, and some count up and back down every 90 degrees.
If the blurry, yellowed, stained, brittle, seventh-generation photocopied instructions from the early '80s you are working from used one system and the degree wheel you happen to have on hand uses another, you will need to be comfortable "translating", or at least make sure you're consistently using the correct set of markings.
It's also one of those times it's important to understand "why" you're doing something rather than just following the numbers in the instructions. No valves or camshafts were harmed that day, only our foreheads from the resounding double smack when the light finally dawned.
Some degree wheels have their primary markings in a full 360 degree circle, some in two 180 degree halves, and some count up and back down every 90 degrees.
If the blurry, yellowed, stained, brittle, seventh-generation photocopied instructions from the early '80s you are working from used one system and the degree wheel you happen to have on hand uses another, you will need to be comfortable "translating", or at least make sure you're consistently using the correct set of markings.
It's also one of those times it's important to understand "why" you're doing something rather than just following the numbers in the instructions. No valves or camshafts were harmed that day, only our foreheads from the resounding double smack when the light finally dawned.
Is there a degree wheel type you suggest for easier reading?
Great post BW. I'm finally starting to understand the why...I use the word "starting" loosely...at this point it's the terminology that's got me scratching my head. I'm having to learn a new language of sorts, all this talk of degree and timing. I'll get it, but I'm just not quite there yet.
No idea... they all will work just fine; you just have to understand what you're doing. Make sure the center hole size matches the bolt you're using, I guess (8mm, IIRC)? I'd likely lean toward a simpler one; some have all sorts of added markings on them. It's also important to make sure you're viewing the marks from a consistent, correct angle. If the bike is on the floor, you're going to have to get on the floor too.
In our case, the photos in the instructions were just vague blurs; 1980s photocopier technology was pretty primitive. So we couldn't tell what they were using and had to depend on the written instructions. Some numbers were also too blurry to read, so there was some detective work and deduction to perform.
zed1015
Forum Mentor
Just buy a Motion pro degree wheel or an APE one they are all the same thing.
Good quality etched aluminium, clear markings and cheap.
I've used the exact same one for 20 years or more.
Motion Pro 08-0092 Motion Pro Degree Wheel | eBay
Good quality etched aluminium, clear markings and cheap.
I've used the exact same one for 20 years or more.
Motion Pro 08-0092 Motion Pro Degree Wheel | eBay
Perfect. Thanks zed. Lets just go part by part here, lol
What do you guys think of this Ape TDC indicator?
https://store.schnitzracing.com/ape...MIhuT15ZmZ7wIVIg_nCh2deAUhEAQYASABEgL_8vD_BwE
I'd prefer to buy one. I think the 10mm version they sell will work but I'll double check.
What bike? You'll need a stop with a 14mm thread for an 850G and most or all 8 valve GS models.
Most or all 16 valve GS models (like the 1150, 1100E, etc.) would need 12mm.
Not sure whether those are absolutes, so look up your spark plug specs.
As far as a degree wheel, the Motion Pro is simple and is marked in 90 degree quadrants. The Summit Racing version goes up to 180 and back down again. There's a comp cams version that has two different scales. Some of the ones intended for cars are awkwardly large. I'd go Motion Pro, personally. Pay attention to the diameter of the center hole, too -- many of the car versions have a larger hole and don't come with bushings to make sure they'll work on a bike.
If you're measuring lift, a dial indicator and base from Harbor Freight will be perfectly fine. Magnetic bases can be pretty awkward and move around since all you have nearby are round frame rails, so a clamping base with a piece of leather to protect the frame might be better. Get some good lighting, set up a pointer with a piece of wire, and develop your strategy for using a consistent point of view to read the runes...
If you do a Google Image Search for "degree wheel" you'll get an idea of the variants.
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G
Guest
Guest
If you have aftermarket cams then ask the manufacturer first. If you are using stock cams, then GregT's numbers are a good place to start. I went to 106I/108E on my 1100E and it was a major improvement over the stock lobe centers. It gives up nothing down low, comes into the power smoother and earlier and revs hard all the way to redline. It is so much stronger than it was at the stock numbers that I started getting clutch slip around 7000rpm in the higher gears where I never had a problem before the change.
Mark
Yeah it's an 850. I honestly didn't know, was just guessing. Thanks for the info BW.
Are these the parts we're talkin about?
Dial indicator
https://www.harborfreight.com/1-in-travel-machinists-dial-indicator-63521.html
Indicator with mount and clamp. Looks to be the same dial indicator as above but I can't tell for sure.
https://www.harborfreight.com/clamping-dial-indicator-63656.html
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