Compu-Fire SERIES R/R Install

[posplayr]

Edited 2/5/2014
An interesting thread discussing Compufire and SH-775 Series R/R's. It appears that in comparable tests the SH-775 gets hotter for high current applications and it was also noticed at high RPM for (16K RPM) there was one instance over voltage break down in regulation reported on the SH-775. Not likely an issue with any GS's around here.

http://www.vstrom.info/Smf/index.php/topic,20426.0.html
Vstrom Discussion of SH-775 and Compufire Series R/Rs

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED FOR A Warm Running 16V GS1100/1150. For you naysayers out there. There is a significant temperature drop if you are running stock in the 250-270 degF range (My 1166 went down to 210-220 degF max).

Aprilla but shows back to back temperature drops

UPDATE; Wheat dog has confirmed a nominal 30 degF drop in operating temp for an 83 GS1100ED with 1166 kit after making this change over to the Compufire-Fire R/R
Installed Compufire RR - Way Cool!!

Chef1366 temperature drop results GS1100 with 1229.
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=2009372&postcount=50

Katman did an install

Compufire "series"
regulator / rectifier
Reduces engine oil temp.

http://www.parts.suzuki-katana.com/

I run a RR off a Goldwing, sh775, it also sits out in the air just above the swingarm on my 1085. It definitely helped with the temps, as you stated.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...overheats-at-low-speeds&p=2192818#post2192818


GS1000G Shopper did a detailed write up on an Compufire install.
Replacing non-OEM stator & R/R

OldVet66 also did an install
Compufire 55402 install '78 GS1000E

Grand Rouge notes improved operating temps with only a Compufire R/R and no oil cooler

COMPUFIRE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS

SHUNT_vs_SERIES_RR_Compare_Tutorial

[h=1]On AMAZON search for: Compu-Fire Regulator for 40A 3-Phase Charging Systems 55402[/h]http://www.amazon.com/Compu-Fire-Regulator-3-Phase-Charging-Systems/dp/B0035U7LRM/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

Voltage Regulator For Compu-Fire? 3Phase System

Number:CF55402
Manufacturer:Compu-Fire?
Weight:1.50 pound(s)
In Stock:0
List Price:$203.99
Our Price:$173.39
You Save:$30.60 (15%)


http://www.usmotoman.com/product/voltage-regulator-for-compufire-3phase-system/-1_17037


ALSO:

CompuFire Regulator for 40 Amp 3-Phase Charging Systems
Dennis Kirk Part #: 209632



Manufacturer Part #: 55402

• CompuFire Regulator for 40 Amp 3-Phase Charging Systems

Your Price: $194.99

Low Price Guarantee (details)

is 3 3/4"x2 1/2"x1 5/8"

COMPUFIRE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS[/URL] in the link below
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/4094057/compufire-intall-pdf-june-5-2012-11-34-pm-548k?da=y&dnad=y


SHUNT_vs_SERIES_RR_Compare_Tutorial[/URL]
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/4066862/ssr-vs-fh012aa-pdf-may-31-2012-10-20-pm-903k?da=y

I have it installed and the wiring is such that I will be able to do back to back tests with the FET based SHUNT R/R and this Compu-Fire SERIES R/R.

Here it is mounted. Took a little work but not bad if you have a welder. The unit is 3.75" x 2 1/2" but the bolt spacing is different to the GS bikes. It is very nice quality and charges well according to all the claims.

Bottom line this is a very nice unit, my bike is running even cooler just going 4-5K RPM and I can put and hold my gloved hand over the stator cover (which was painful before).

COMPUFIRE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS

Weather Pack Connector Source Information

SHUNT_vs_SERIES_RR_Compare_Tutorial

 

[posplayr]

COMPUFIRE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS in link below

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/4094057/compufire-intall-pdf-june-5-2012-11-34-pm-548k?da=y&dnad=y


Looks like the SERIES regulator reduces the power dissipation in the stator by about 3:1 as the current flow in the SERIES is about 27 amps compared to a maximum of 15 for the SERIES unit.

So other that the big Hp gain the Compu Fire does everything as promised. The reason there is not more heat lost in the FH012AA is the magnets saturate and can't create any more than 27 amps.

Stator Performance Summary

Here is a PDF with the gory details

COMPUFIRE_VS_FH012AA_PERFORMANCE_COMPARE[/COLOR][/URL]

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/4066862/ssr-vs-fh012aa-pdf-may-31-2012-10-20-pm-903k?da=y


Good Luck.

Posted on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 09:49 pm:
Re'd this from Posplayr earlier:

Richard,
No worries. The Compufire SERIES R/R is about as efficient as is possible to be and in fact is even more efficient than an alternator.

I'll summarize a little so you understand the categories.

Most of our charging systems are what is know as Permanent Magnet generators, while some others are known as alternators. The main difference is that a PM generator uses magnets to puts out more and more power with RPM ; the only thing that limits it is a R/R or the max power available from the magnetics.
The alternator does not have a permanent magnet, but rather controls an electromagnet. So as the RPM goes up the alternator reduces the current going to the electro magnet which there bu limits output.

So this brings us to the PM generator and how to limit power from it. First variation is SHUNt v.s. SERIES. The SHUNT just shorts the windings when
there is too much power. It is like dimming the lights in your room by shorting out a wall socket. The lights dim and without a fuse you would burn out the house wiring(analogy to the stator windings).

The SERIES basically just opens and closes a light switch quickly. That causes the light to dim based on the duty cycle of how long it is on v.s. off. The SERIES is much better on the house wiring (the analogy of the stator winding)

OK in Power Supply Design beside also having SERIES and SHUNT there is also something called Switching and Linear. The Linear regulators are also known typically called SERIES but it is really a completely different animal. A typical linear regulator is used for DC to DC drop down regulation. That means for example you take in 12-24V DC and you regulate it down to 5V.

The SERIES regulator produces the 5V out by dropping voltage (and gertting hot at teh sametime) either 7V when 12V is coming in or 19V when 24V is coming in. This is very inefficient and only works when there is very little current being supplied. THIS IS NOT HOW THE COMPUFIRE WORKS. 5/12V is about 40% efficent and 5/25 is 20% effcient

The other type of regulator is know as a Switcher. This is very similar in principle to the COMPUFIRE from an efficiency stand point but I would not call the COMPUFIRE a true switcher in the conventional sense. For a motorcycle forum you could call it a switcher, but it is not really one.

The difference between a true switcher is that the switcher runs at a high frequency 5-10 Khz chopping the incoming DC to limit the output voltage as a function of the switch duty cycle. They usually chop at a rate independent of the input. The Chopping regulator also has a fairly significant energy storage device (capacitor/inductor) at the output to smooth the output voltage (as part of the switching regulator).

Almost all of the SHUNT,FET and SERIES R/R's for the PM 3 phase on the motorcycles switch, but they switch synchronously with the 3 phase AC. For a 18 pole stator the frequency is RPM/10. So at 10K RPM you are a 1K hz maximum. This is well below what most true switches operate. If you look up DC to DC power supply, those are the classic Switches power supplies. Other than this speed difference, the Compufire SERIES R/R and the DC to DC switching regulator are similar as both are series designs. It is just a different application. Both operate in the 90-95% efficiency range. (power transfered vs total power consumed) in contrast to the SERIES Linear design.

Hope that is clear; you can post the explanation if you like

 

[salty_monk]

Jim

did you choose the compufire over the other makes you found purely due to it's size or were there other reasons?
Was this the best priced unit?

Dan

 

[posplayr]

Jim

did you choose the compufire over the other makes you found purely due to it's size or were there other reasons?
Was this the best priced unit?

Dan

The Cycle Electric 600 Series is about $10-$20 cheaper depending and is much larger.


cheapest on ebay at the moment. You need the 600 series and they are larger. I have not tested these. From discussion with the designer should be no problems.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/01-0...0485598QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories


More typical pricing...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cycl...7725472QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories


http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1225955&postcount=21

600 series are all the same size but with different mounting and connector options

Size is 4.75"x 3.4" x 1.5" (LxWxH). In the pics you
For comparison the Electrosport is about
3.5"x3.0"x1.25"

 

[Calvin Blackmore]

fabulous information many thanks

 

[posplayr]

Added a better description of the fundamental differences. In addition the SERIES Compufire puts out more voltage at low RPM (about 1 volt more or 14.2V by 1500 RPM v.s. about 13.2V OEM) and stay cooler along with keeping the stator much cooler.

SHUNT_vs_SERIES_RR_Compare_Tutorial

 

[posplayr]

Bump for anybody with a fried stator

 

[posplayr]

I've been playing catchup on Jim's and others' efforts and reading with great interest.

It appears we aren't the first group to have issues with overheating stators and going with series regulators and even the extra oil lines.

Here's some interesting reading...

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1743002

Thanks for all the work, guys.

- JC

JC,
Looks like as of 08-21-2008 they had only determined that the issue was the SHUNT regulation. They were told this by Electrosport. No solution had been identified.

stator project

package arrived yesterday, they returned my rotor....
the problem is twofold;
1. the rotor has too much magnetism
2. the voltage regulator is a shunt type
both things cause heat in the stator, one by creating too much electricty, the other by trying to dump the excess to the battery and ground.
the stator isn't the problem, it has been around for 30+ years without problems.....but when it was coupled with a stator with super magnets in it and a cheap shunt regulator...it melts

you can't test the stator with an Ohm meter...i've got a fried one that reads 0.7,0.7,0.6 Ohms at the yellow wires with visible breaks in the windings!

Noel-theknurl

I posted this link over there. I had to register and after a moderator approves me for posting it should show up.

They were also changing stators. What apparently caused the biggest issue was high RPM coupled with super magnets in a new rotor.

Jim

 

[posplayr]

Jim,

That was very considerate of you. Maybe we get all the "smart guys" in one "room" as they say

If you do a search for "stator" on that site, you'll see some updated info.

An interesting comment on one of the posts is the series regulators build up much more heat than the shunt based r/r. I didn't track that info down, but maybe your current work and testing will prove that out one way or the other?

- JC

That must be a mistype as it is exactly opposite.

 

[posplayr]

I found a most interesting thread with r/r from JP Cycles and cooler running stators. For your viewing pleasure:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160360&highlight=stator

My apologies for linking to another forum. I hope "our smart guys" read that thread and take the lead here for us.

- JC

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1993375&postcount=22

Guys its not the stator, its been around for 30+ years, its not the rec/regulator....
its the combination of the type of regulator with the NEW ROTOR!!!!

'98-'03 Aprilias had the same stator and regulator and did NOT fry stators
the Big 4 ALL had trouble with the new generation rotors from Denso... the difference being .........they recalled them!!!
the experts said ~1300 Gausses are needed to produce 500 watts...
they measured mine at ~2600 Gausses

Wow this is like the blind leading the blind Denso increased the magnetic strength of their rotors by 2 fold and did not even realize the implications on stators with shunt regulators.

Well it does look like Ricks has been working to desensitise teh stator to high RPM charging.

By increase the wire size they reduce the resistance in the stator and more voltage is delivered to the load as a percentae of the total stator output. But to compensate for the real problem they reduce teh number of windings so that at high RPM there is less voltage. They are really threading the needle.

The yshoudl look at the aftermarket 3 phase HD charging systems for a lesson in charging PM charging systems.

 

[posplayr]

This is disgusting.......

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160360&page=11

heat
Helmut;
i watched my rotor, on the test bench at ElectroSport, start the insulation on a brand new smoking and turn from blue to brown....in 20 seconds!

the problem is the rotor it reads almost 2600 Gausses, i've been told that you only need 1200 Gausses or so to produce the listed output of the alternator

between 1st and 2nd generation Milles only the rotor changed!

the Big 4 had the same problem....but they DID something about it.....and speak Japanese too

Noel-theknurl

 

[posplayr]

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2484487&postcount=239

It is really painful to read this crap.

he finally got a Compufire. in April 2010.

Another guy got the cycle electric a couple months before.

mini_me;
Chris there is another thread on stators....

i went to ElectroSport with my R&R and rotor
they measured the magnetism...~2600 Gausses they said you only need 12-1300 to make 500watts.
they took a narrower stator and spun my rotor around it, in 20 seconds the insulation was smoking!!!!

so they cut 2.0mm off the OD of the stator.....well it didn't make enough at low speed as it turned out in the real world

so now i have a Rick's 'big wire' stator and a series reg/rec
mine is a 40amp one from Compufire
http://www.compufire.com/new-products.html
a friend got it for me so i don't know how much they are

Noel-theknurl

__________________

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

We should add this to the stator papers

 

[posplayr]

with a SERIES R/R the magnetic strength of the rotor doesn't matter. The stator dissipates pretty much a fixed percentage of the delivered power.

The effect for a SHUNT regulator is that for an increased strength the stator power climbs to the square of the RPM till it saturates the magnetics. For my old GS1100ED rotor this is about 360 watts. The Apprillas are about 500 watts and then Denso doubled the magnetic field by 2. That would allow them to climb to 1000 watts.

That shows a clear lack of understanding by someone on how the PM charging works.

 

[posplayr]

Just a bump so anybody currently faced with doing stator or R/R changes might want to consider the Compu-fire SERIES R/R . It will certainly solve most problems with chronically fired stators.

 

[duaneage]

1000 watts is a lot of power on a motorcycle, must be to run the stereo. cb radio, heaters, lights, sirens, and a bunch of other stuff. Fortunately our GS bikes only require a fraction of that.

 

[posplayr]

1000 watts is a lot of power on a motorcycle, must be to run the stereo. cb radio, heaters, lights, sirens, and a bunch of other stuff. Fortunately our GS bikes only require a fraction of that.

Yep and that is what causes the stators to fry, the shunted stators can NOT handle sustained high RPM riding.

 

[bwringer]

Dennis Kirk is still out of stock -- any word on a source for these regulators that actually has stock?

 

[posplayr]

Dennis Kirk is still out of stock -- any word on a source for these regulators that actually has stock?

Martin (Wallowgreen) says he ordered from K&G cycles last Thursday. His note

I spoke online to one of their service reps as I placed the order. He said they didn't have stock but would drop ship it from compu-fire directly. I just spoke with the same guy again this morning and he said it shipped out from them on Friday.

For some reason he could not raise USMOTOMAN on the phone.

I heard another guy got one on ebay but I saw none listed.

 

[Richsuz]

So I am searching for thjs R/R. I run into this and I would like to know if I am looking at the wrong part or is this really a good price.

http://www.debrix.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=CF55120%2DMCA