tire balancing weights

[dpep]

For my 1100E I had the beads put in the last set of tires I got. I do not like the ride on my bike now, but it could be something other than the beads. I don't have near the miles to compare on the E that I do on my other bikes, and it is the first time I have tried this tire brand (Cheng-Shin Hi Max). It certainly feels like they might be out of balance. I am going to dump the beads and balance with weights to get a direct comparison.

Are the beads used in professional racing? That is usually a pretty good indicator of efficacy.

 

[Theo]

Are the beads used in professional racing? That is usually a pretty good indicator of efficacy.

That got my curious so I looked it up. Apparently they can not be used in racing tires.

Can I use Dyna Beads for motorcycle road racing?
No. The inner liner compound of motorcycle road racing tires is too soft to allow Dyna Beads to perform properly. (this does not apply to off-road motorcycle racing)

 

[bakalorz]

According to this link the beads move in the direction of motion which makes sense, however I don't see how they can move fast enough to counteract the vibration in real time. I'll stick with cheap and effective balance weights.

Let me first off say that I have not yet used their or other beads yet
(although I intend to try them at some point)

Their description could be clearer ...
Let me try to describe it better.

First of all, the best way to think of the beads is that they are a bunch of little balance weights that AUTOMAGICALLY move to the correct spot to balance the tire each time it starts to spin. The force that makes the tiny weights move to the right spot is the vibration of the imbalance itself. Their drawings try to describe the way the process works.

But, before we begin, a couple of assumptions that need to be spelled out
1) the inner surface of the tire is perfectly concentric to the axle
2) the inner surface of the tire is smooth enough that the beads can move relatively freely
3) that there is "more than enough" weight of beads installed

For the first drawing, we look at the tire sitting there not spinning.
All the beads are on the bottom.

For the second drawing, assume a perfectly balanced tire begining to spin.
Basically the beads spread around all around the tire and are evenly distributed. Once they are distributed, each bead basically stays in one spot on the tire as the tire goes around. (i.e. the beads are going around with the tire) ... It's like a tire with a whole bunch of tiny balance weights evenly spaced all around it.

For the third drawing, assume the same situation as the second, but add a heavy spot in the tire. As the heavy spot goes over the top, the tire "HOP"s up just a little bit (say 1/16 of an inch). The beads were originally evenly distributed around the tire (and spinning with it, not moving relative to the tire). As the tire hops up, inertia of the beads resists the hop, so the beads move 1/16 of an inch in the direction opposite the heavy spot and then continue to stay in the same (new) spot on the tire as it goes round. After a few hops, the distribution has changed to look like figure 3
and the tire is less out of balance ... The whole bunch of tiny balance weights are no longer evenly spaced on the tire, but are crawling around inside the tire to fix the balance.

For the fourth drawing, they are trying to show that as long as the tire has a little bit of remaining unbalance, the beads get a force that moves them to fix the unbalance ... the tiny weights keep crawling as long as there is imbalance

until in the fifth drawing the tire is balanced and all the beads stay in place on the tire as it rotates around ... all the tiny weights have reached their final position.

----

So thats how it works in theory anyways.
Does it work in real life too ?
It should; but, well remember those assumptions above ... If any of them are violated, then it won't work right.

If you don't have enough balls, they will all move to the opposite side, but still won't be heavy enough to offset the imbalance ... and I suspect that you need some excess just to have some distributed around the tire.

If the balls can't move around easily enough then they may never reach the spots that they need to. This point makes me wonder about the tire balance machine and if the balls can properly balance a tire in it. The machine may be too smooth, and some vibration probably helps the balls move around in the tire. Also, the suspension on a motorcycle lets the tire hop a little, the axle on the balance machine may hold the tire to rigidly for the tire motion to move the balls where they need to go. And finally, a tire on the road has the contact patch, where the tire flexes inward relative to its "neutral" position, which I'm sure helps the balls move around.

But the big thing that may cause problems is if the inside of the tire is not concentric enough to the axle. A thin spot could collect all the balls, even though it may not be opposite the heavy spot of the tire (that said, a thin spot IS pretty likely to be the light area on the tire and where the balls SHOULD collect anyway ... but its not guaranteed to be the right spot)

I also found the MCN article a little suspect based on this sentence
Also, the weight of the beads added so close to the tire tread gave a noticeable increase in gyro stability, making the steering heavier
NUH UH, I don't think so ... 2 ounces of balls makes the steering heavier, but 1.6 ounces of lead an inch or two further in doesn't? (To say nothing of the several pounds of tire)


The two biggest selling points for the tire balls to me are:
1) Less work balancing (and you can't get it wrong by accident)
2) As the tire wears, the balance will change, and should be rebalanced every once in a while, with the balls you don't have to.


Well, that was way more than I expected to write at first.

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

More snake oil ! has anyone tried balancing the rim seperatly and putting the weights on the inside, then mounting the tire?

 

[almarconi]

According to this link the beads move in the direction of motion which makes sense, however I don't see how they can move fast enough to counteract the vibration in real time. I'll stick with cheap and effective balance weights.

Before condemning them, why don't you give them a try? They really do work quite well.

 

[lurch12_2000]

Before condemning them, why don't you give them a try? They really do work quite well.

As a point of comparison:
With clip ons, I usually see 10, 20 , and 30g weights. With stick on, 7 and 14g weights. With beads, what is the equivalent number of beads to use? ...or is just a package of 20? 30?... that supposedly covers any out of balance condition?
I've had to use up to 84g of weights to balance out some of these old rims and/or new tires.
Another question:
If the bike sits for a few months and there's some moisture inside (usually) the tire, are they coated metal, or non-rusting metal, or prone to rust and clumping together possibly negating any usefulness?

EDIT:
This may answer some of my questions, specifically with Dyna-Bead brand:
http://www.dynabeads.ca/chart.htm#MotorcycleChart

ceramic not metal

2-3oz depending on bike tire size (56g-84g)

if the basic theory works, then a plus is the dynamic balancing over the life of the tire

NOTE: check out the website's link for the installation tutorial...maybe a new use for a vibrator?

 

[lurch12_2000]

I am going to dump the beads and balance with weights to get a direct comparison.

Do you mount your own tires? I assume from the year of your 1100E, it uses the tubeless rim, so you would break the tire bead, pop one side off from the top as usual, and then scoop or shop vac out the beads?...then pop that side back on before inflating? ...since you'll still be using the same tire.
I wonder what the guys who do this for a living think about beads?...hassle or no? Any opinions, besides us who change a few tires a year out? I'm no expert since I've only changed about 10 bike tires myself in the last 2-3 yrs on my collection of GSes.

 

[Theo]

NOTE: check out the website's link for the installation tutorial...maybe a new use for a vibrator?

Haha yeah. I just ended up using my electric shaver and it all worked out. But it still does go pretty slow. You have to pour them in real slowly.

 

[Ohioan]

Use stick on weights.

Give the clip-ons to someone who molds their own bullets.. like me

 

[Dogma]

Chiming in on the beads: I have them in my 850. Tube in the rear, tubeless up front. They do work. I've had them up to near triple digits. I rode with them at Brown County and WV last season. Probably equal fuss to installing weights, but you don't need extra apparatus. Maybe a little more fuss, if you're experienced at balancing.

They do their thing when the wheel is still turning slowly. At the slow speeds, you can't feel the wheels out of balance, but it's enough shake to get the beads to where they need to be. Motorcycle Consumer News should have known not to put them on a static balancer. They won't work if the axle is held rigid. They should have known not to put them on a car. They add only slightly more centrifugal inertia to a wheel than static weights. If they really can feel more centrifugal force from a couple ounces added to a 15 lb wheel, then I'm impressed. As far as I'm concerned, MCN failed to do any homework before doing their testing. I'll have to remember to discount anything they say.

All that said, there is one significant shortcoming. Hard bumps at highway speed can upset the beads. At those speeds, they have a hard time redistributing themselves, and you'll get a noticeable shake for a while or until you slow down. Not necessarily a dangerous shake, but definitely adds to the irritation of really bad pavement on the slab.

After trying them out for a while, I'm thinking I may not use them again. There is a section of interstate near here that can upset them reliably. On the other hand, that particular stretch of pseudo-pavement might knock a sticky weight off. If I was paying someone else to mount my wheels, I might want weights, preferably not sticky. Doing it myself again... I might re-use them for being to lazy too build a balancing rig.

Bottom line, they do work. Would I recommend them? Eh. Make up your own mind.

 

[Joe Nardy]

My question to those who say the beads work is 'Have you tried the same wheel/tire combination without the beads?' It is entirely possible that your wheel/tire combination is balanced closely enough that you would experience no issues without the beads. It is impossible to say the beads work unless you verify that you experience an issue without the weights and the issue is resolved with the beads. Has anyone performed these steps?

Thanks,
Joe

 

[lurch12_2000]

Time to add some discussion to this "debate":

.....stick on weights vs Dyna Beads

(+) for strip of twelve 7g (1/4oz) stick ons = $0.88 (3oz or 84g total)

dyna beads 3oz(84g) bag = $7.41 (or three 1 oz bags for $10.35)


stick ons are not reusable (unless you want to use superglue)

(+?) dyna beads are reusable, BUT herein lies one of my questions. Who has reused them or kept their bike long enough to mount a second tire?
Has anyone scooped out and weighed the beads to make sure they're all there before putting them in the new tubeless tire? If using a tube, I guess, you would just leave alone and reuse the tube if good. If the tube is no good then you'll have to cut open the tube to retrieve your beads.

I think it only prudent to check to see if the tire is out of balance before using either method, so I would not give the dyna beads a plus for saving time. In fact I think it is more time consuming to patiently tap or vibrate a back of beads through the valve stem. It is noted that you can just dump the bag in before reseating the second bead of a tubeless tire. Don't know about you, but in my garage mounting method, sometimes the tire "jumps" around on you, and I'd hate to chase those little beads around on the floor(read...20 minutes of cursing and picking up these little jewels at $8/bag)!

...dynamic balancing over the life of the tire (in theory?), so a (+) goes to the dyna beads for that.

Stick ons may fly off at triple digit speed?
dyna beads will never fly away (unless you blow out a tire and losing an $8 bag of beads is the LEAST of your problems at that moment!)

There, that will get this "important" decision discussion going again!

 

[Theo]

Time to add some discussion to this "debate":

.....stick on weights vs Dyna Beads

(+) for strip of twelve 7g (1/4oz) stick ons = $0.88 (3oz or 84g total)

dyna beads 3oz(84g) bag = $7.41 (or three 1 oz bags for $10.35)


stick ons are not reusable (unless you want to use superglue)

(+?) dyna beads are reusable, BUT herein lies one of my questions. Who has reused them or kept their bike long enough to mount a second tire?
Has anyone scooped out and weighed the beads to make sure they're all there before putting them in the new tubeless tire? If using a tube, I guess, you would just leave alone and reuse the tube if good. If the tube is no good then you'll have to cut open the tube to retrieve your beads.

I think it only prudent to check to see if the tire is out of balance before using either method, so I would not give the dyna beads a plus for saving time. In fact I think it is more time consuming to patiently tap or vibrate a back of beads through the valve stem. It is noted that you can just dump the bag in before reseating the second bead of a tubeless tire. Don't know about you, but in my garage mounting method, sometimes the tire "jumps" around on you, and I'd hate to chase those little beads around on the floor(read...20 minutes of cursing and picking up these little jewels at $8/bag)!

...dynamic balancing over the life of the tire (in theory?), so a (+) goes to the dyna beads for that.

Stick ons may fly off at triple digit speed?
dyna beads will never fly away (unless you blow out a tire and losing an $8 bag of beads is the LEAST of your problems at that moment!)

There, that will get this "important" decision discussion going again!

Ok, I'll bite. I'm afraid though that my experience is limited only to dyna beads so it will probably be a little biased.

I paid $3 for a 2oz bag and 5$ 3oz bag.

I will attempt to use them next time I change the tires. I have tubed tires so I think it should be simple enough. Remove tire, then remove tube, remove valve core from tube, position valve at bottom pointing towards ground and out should come the dyna beads...I think. Then cut it open to get out any stragglers.

Installing them is a little time consuming but pretty straight forward. Just don't try and dump them in and you should be fine.

Spilled your bag of dyna beads...been there, done that. Get a nylon stocking (Disclaimer: not responsible if you use your wife's or gf's stocking and get in trouble) and stuff the foot part down the nozzle of a shop vac about 6 inches or so, and roll the remainder over the outside of the hose. Turn the vac on and suck up all of the dyna beads. Now with the hose pointing up, turn the vac off and then proceed in removing the stocking from the hose. Now you should have a stocking full of dyna beads. This also works for other little things that might be difficult to pick up.

Now to my experience with them. Well...it's great. I haven't noticed any ill side effects from them. I also haven't experienced losing stability when hitting a bump at highway speed. And believe me, I hit some big bumps on my commute to work. The highway I take to work has these raised sections, almost like speed bumps for a stretch of it, and let me tell you, they hurt. I'm usually going 70mph when I hit them and almost always, if I forget to stand up, they launch me out of my seat, or compress the forks enough to the point that it hurts. But after hitting these, I haven't noticed any upsetting of the beads.

Joe Nardy brought up a good point that maybe the tires and rims are so closely balanced that beads or weights are not necessary. Maybe this is the case with my bike, but who knows? The only thing is, I've read many positive reviews from people putting them on tires that had vibrations with wheel weights, and the vibrations disappear. So maybe they do work after all. Just search "Dynabeads review" in google and you''ll see all the happy testimonials from satisfied customers. I have yet to see a truly negative review of them.

So bottom line, I will continue to use them and suggest that other people give them a shot. It's not like it's a huge investment. Even cheaper if you have a tire shop balance your tire for you.
Cheers and good luck.
-Theo

 

[bwringer]

Who are all these people losing stick-on weights and what are they doing wrong?

Seriously -- I've never seen one come off, on the street or on the track.

 

[lurch12_2000]

Who are all these people losing stick-on weights and what are they doing wrong?

Seriously -- I've never seen one come off, on the street or on the track.

not sure, but I threw that in there because it was mentioned before. Personally, I had to pry the old ones off my 1100E rim with a sturdy putty knife.

...and $8/3oz bag was list price on their website...You can revise with the $5/3oz bag street price as mentioned.

btw, check out the installation method for a tubeless bike tire and dumping the bag in first...the valve stem should be at 12 o'clock when inflating and seating the tire beads. I'm guessing that if it's flat (as most of us have it while inflating) or the valve at 6 o'clock, there is potential for the initial burst of air to blast out the pile of beads from every nook and cranny onto the floor?

 

[tkent02]

Dyna beads rock. I got a big bag of them from a local shop, I find a ballpark figure for how far out the wheel/tire is by temporarily taping lead weights on the rim, use about 1 1/2 times that much weight in beads.
The wheel's balance stays perfect no matter how the tire wears, no losing weights, if something sticks in the tread the beads correct this imbalance instantly.

 

[Dogma]

Who are all these people losing stick-on weights and what are they doing wrong?

Seriously -- I've never seen one come off, on the street or on the track.

My 850 came with stick-on weights, and they weren't stuck very well. It was very easy to remove them. Good to know that's not normal. But then, any balancing technique can get screwed up.

 

[tkent02]

But then, any balancing technique can get screwed up.

Except the beads. They are in there.