Welded crankshaft..to be or not to be, that is the question.

[Guest]

So, in the course of dealing with rebuilding my 83 1100E engine I have posted several questions that have been answered by some pretty knowledgeable site members. The trouble is, the more info I get the more questions I have. I have tried to search for my answers on-line but the results of my search are leading me back to here to see what other members have done and to see what does and what doesn't work. More importantly, what's necessary and what's not.

The question of crankshaft welding has come up and I'm trying to place it's importance in this build. As I've posted before, I am taking an 1100 to an 1134 with 2mm oversize Wiseco pistons and installing '84 1150EFE cams and feeding the whole thing via a set of 36mm slingshot carbs. The crankshaft I'm using is the standard crank that came with the engine and I was actually running this engine for several years before removing it from the frame and boxing it for later use. The crank has never been dismantled and by the way the engine ran I don't believe it has suffered anything detrimental over the years.

I know its not easy to determine how much hp this engine is going to make but I'm guessing it's not going to be a huge increase over its former configuration. So..do I need to consider welding the crank or will I just be wasting my time and money..?

Thanks for reading. Hope someone can enlighten me.

 

[zed1015]

Not really needed on a normally aspirated street engine unless you plan on doing some sprinting ,racing or slapping a turbo on it in the future etc.
Apart from missing a high speed gear change the main cause of twisting a crank is by shoving the power through a wide sticky tyre such as a 10in slick used in drag racing which seriously loads up the crank and gearbox on the launch.

 

[rphillips]

I think I'm remembering right. Suzuki started welding the GS1100 crankshafts in mid year 1982. They left one journal, the one at the primary gear, not welded. My opinion & just my opinion, yours will be just fine with what you are doing. I don't remember any crankshaft problems with the 1100 or 1150's after they started welding them.

 

[Nessism]

rphillips has it right; the 1983 1100E has a welded crank. The 1100E makes a lot of torque and cranks have been know to twist from relatively normal street riding for certain unlucky folks.

 

[Guest]

Thank you for all your thoughts. All very good info. I haven't checked but next time I'm in my shop I'll take a close look at the crank for any signs of welding. I did buy the wrecked bike this engine came from in France so I don't know if globally ALL the 83 1100's were welded or if Suzuki did it only for the voluminous US market knowing that if they got it wrong they'd be sued from here to eternity..)

I guess the only thing I need now is for Dirty Harry to chime in and ask.."Do you feel lucky, punk..?"

Lot's to chew on. Thanks as always for the great help. If it makes sense I'll post some pics of what I've got.

 

[Guest]

First thing you need to do is make sure it is not already twisted. We have 18mm rod long enough to fit through all four rods. If it won't go through all four, it is twisted.

You can also check to see if the crank is twisted is an assembled engine.

 

[limeex2]

82 1000 Katana's also had welded cranks. Its kinda like buying an extended warranty. They suck until the day you need it. With the amount of work you are doing to your motor it would be nice to never have to worry.

 

[Rob S.]

Re: "Unknown year GS1100ES"

I believe an 11ES would have to be an '83.

 

[Guest]

82 1000 Katana's also had welded cranks. Its kinda like buying an extended warranty. They suck until the day you need it. With the amount of work you are doing to your motor it would be nice to never have to worry.

I kinda agree with you. It would suck if something as preventable as this turned my engine into scrap. I'll have to find a shop here in Vancouver who would have the experience dealing with this kind of work.

 

[Guest]

My thoughts, when the 16 valve 1100 first came out I believe Vance and Hines put a turbo on a stock engine bike and ran it at the 1/4 mile track. Granted it didn't have a monster slick. The last I heard it went 3 plus seasons without opening up the engine. If the crank ever breaks and you get it built, have it welded. That is assuming you can get it built, the parts are getting pretty rare.

 

[Guest]

My thoughts, when the 16 valve 1100 first came out I believe Vance and Hines put a turbo on a stock engine bike and ran it at the 1/4 mile track. Granted it didn't have a monster slick. The last I heard it went 3 plus seasons without opening up the engine. If the crank ever breaks and you get it built, have it welded. That is assuming you can get it built, the parts are getting pretty rare.

I need a crank or a good rebuild for my '83 1100e that came up with an increasing cyclical clatter that gradually got to the point of teardown. It seemed to arise after a missed shift overrev, didn't notice right away but became evident fairly soon after and got progressively worse with every ride. Center main brng rollers disintegrating along with inner race pitting. I noticed the inner race spins, is that normal? Anyway, is there an outfit doing good rebuilds or should I start looking for a used engine??? Falicon seems to have a checkered reputation, and I don't know if they even do this work anymore...any leads appreciated!

 

[grcamna2]

I had an 82' and the 83' GS1100E models back in the mid 90's.I decided I was going to really pump-up my black 83' engine(for the street)and bought a Wiseco 1170 kit and looked around and found a man in MA. named Stanley Gardner(Gardner Racing Concepts),he builds drag race engines.I planned to tear-down the 83' and do the APE chromoly cylinder studs,case studs and get the clutch basket beefed-up by APE.I had Stanley do head-work with porting and purchased Megacycle cams:I wanted some serious street HP out of my 83' 1100ED,while living on a resort island where the speed limit is 45mph.. :ambivalence: frustrating trying to take it for a blast while living there.
Stanley recommended rebuilding the crankshaft and I questioned that because my engine was low miles and I pointed-out the crankshaft is already welded from the factory.He told me that he has checked stock cranks(including the 83')for alignment and said even ones in good condition with low miles had a couple issues,from the factory:specifically that they were slightly out-of-phase meaning that according to his precision measurements that some of the crankpins were not exactly 180 degrees apart 'on the mark' and that it's much better to have them set-up Exactly on the mark,then welded back up strong.I thought it was over-kill at the time myself.. but since I gave the engine over to his care,I decided to fully trust him:he's built enough of them to know.He told me that if the crank is 'out of phase' like that or twisted,that the engine/crankshaft can't make 100% of it's usable power output and would kind of end up 'fighting itself'. The prices he charged(small independent high-performance machine shop:he wasn't anywhere Near as high-profile in 1994' as Falicon has been)were very reasonable(I thought)and I was Very pleased with the finished product.

 

[Nessism]

Quote rapidray:

For roller bearing cranks, the ONLY places I will send one is to John Pearson in Ohio, Stan Gardner in Maine, or Bob Mosher in Florida. I wouldn't ask Falicon what time of day it is!
Ray.

 

[tatu]

All interesting reading here, I have a question. Does welding the crank cause any distortion at all?
Once this is all assembled and straight i want to weld it

 

[Guest]

What are you using to separate the crank bits??? I used to do 2 stroke singles, and could probably do a 2 stroke twin or even a triple, but never tackled a 4 stroke multi cyl...

 

[tatu]

What are you using to separate the crank bits??? I used to do 2 stroke singles, and could probably do a 2 stroke twin or even a triple, but never tackled a 4 stroke multi cyl...

I'm sure it's the same theory, my BIL cut and shaped me some (I think) 20mm thick steel plates because you have to catch the whole web evenly. I have only a 10 ton press but it seems to manage ok.
I would send some photos of the plates but I'm not near them.

I was hoping for some feed back re welding the crank together, the crank pins is only possible to get part way around with weld and as the crank has an allowable run out i think of .0002" I was needing to know if the pressed together parts are rigid enough to avoid distortion. I was hoping somebody with experience of this would know and answer.

 

[GregT]

If it's welded as you assemble each part - tacked, checked for alignment then finish welded - you should avoid distortion.

An engineer local to me did an 1150 crank for a local drag racer. He'd never done one this long before and rang me for advice - his usual fallback, lol.
He did as suggested above and it's turned out fine.

 

[tatu]

If it's welded as you assemble each part - tacked, checked for alignment then finish welded - you should avoid distortion.

An engineer local to me did an 1150 crank for a local drag racer. He'd never done one this long before and rang me for advice - his usual fallback, lol.
He did as suggested above and it's turned out fine.

Thanks for the response, it does help settle things in my mind, I don't know if my Tig welder has enough power to weld the crank, but i do know the whole thing has to be disassembled to get to all the places. I also don't think i have the level of skill to lay in the exact weld it will need. The crank in the picture is a sacrificial test one to practice on.

 

[grcamna2]

If it's welded as you assemble each part - tacked, checked for alignment then finish welded - you should avoid distortion.

An engineer local to me did an 1150 crank for a local drag racer. He'd never done one this long before and rang me for advice - his usual fallback, lol.
He did as suggested above and it's turned out fine.

Shipping to Maine from where you are might cost a bit,but if you can get in touch with Stan Gardner and work-out some details..

 

[Guest]

I put in a FB pm to Gardner Racing, anyone have contact info for John Pearson or any othe good crank rebuilders???