Stater and Reg/Rect problems on 82 GS650Ez

[650Skull]

Having problems with the stater on my GS650Ez. Looking for information on Reg/Rect replacements.
Found a thread where Basscliff posted up a series of Staters, (of other bikes ), that i assume can all be used as a replacement for the factory Reg/Rect.

Can anyone give me any feedback on any of the Reg/Rect's posted below.


Honda CBR1000RR 06-07 Shindengen SH678B 12V 35 Amp rating, 15.1 V
Honda CBR1000RR 08 Shindengen FH-008EB 12V FET 40 Amp rating (with wire tails and plugs)
Honda CBR1000RR 08 Shindengen FH-014AA 12V FET 50 Amp rating
Honda CBR1000RR 05? Shindengen SH775 12V Series 35 Amp rating, 14.0 - 15.0V
Honda GL1000 79 Shindengen SH232-12 9.0 12V
Honda GL1000, 1100,1200 80-87 Shindengen SH541C-12 12V xx Amp 14.4 V(about 1/8" wider & slight mod to fit GS)
Honda GL1100 Shindengen SH538-12 12V (8 Wire, double pos & neg, sense, holes 3mm further apart ream with a drill bit to fit GS)
Honda GL1100A 82 Shindengen SH538-12 12V (8 Wire, double pos & neg, sense, holes 3mm further apart ream with a drill bit to fit GS)
Honda Silverwing Shindengen SH538-12 12V (8 Wire, double pos & neg, sense, holes 3mm further apart ream with a drill bit to fit GS)
Honda Superdream Shindengen SH232-12 12V
Honda VF750/1000 Shindengen SH541-12 12V xx Amp 14.4 V(about 1/8" wider & slight mod to fit GS)
Honda VT250FG/MC17 Shindengen SH538-12 12V (8 Wire, double pos & neg, sense, holes 3mm further apart ream with a drill bit to fit GS)
Honda XLV600V 89-90 Shindengen SH538A-12 12V (8 Wire, double pos & neg, sense, holes 3mm further apart ream with a drill bit to fit GS)
Kawasaki Concours 1400GTR 08-09 Shindengen FH-012AB FET 50Amp rating 14.4V-15.0V
Kawasaki KZ750 Shindengen SH530-12K 12V 20 Amp rating (brown - voltage sense wire, connect to switched +12V)
Kawasaki Z750 Shindengen SH530-12 12V 20 Amp rating (brown - voltage sense wire, connect to switched +12V)
Kawasaki ZX10/14, R1, FJR 05-06 Shindengen FH-010AA 12V FET 50A rating 14.3V -15.1V
Kawasaki ZX10 2005 Shindengen FH-010BA 12V FET 50A rating 14.3V -15.1V (mounting holes 3 mm wider than GS, may need bracket)
Yamaha FJR13 2007 Shindengen FH-012 12V 50 Amps rating 14.5V
Yamaha FZS10 2007 Shindengen FH-012 12V 50 Amps rating 14.5V
Yamaha RX1 03 Shindengen FH-001 12V 35 Amps rating 14.1V - 14.9
Yamaha YZF-R1 02 Shindengen FH-001 12V 35 Amps 200V rating 14.1V - 14.9V
Yamaha YZF-R1 04-06 Shindengen FH-011AA 12V 50 Amps 100V rating 14.3V - 15.1V (has very tall fins, consider space requirements)
Yamaha YZF-R1 2007 Shindengen FH-012AA 12V 50 Amps 40V rating 14.2V - 14.8V
Yamaha Snowmobile 07/08 Shindengen FH-012AA 12V 50 Amps 40V rating 14.2V - 14.8V
Arctic Cat 650 H2 Shindengen SH541KD (bolts fit GS, large shape)

Cheers, Skull

 

[Nessism]

SH775 is the forum favorite. It's a SERIES type, not SHUNT, like all those on your list. Series type R/R's help protect your stator from return current over heat damage, and are highly recommended.

 

[Gorminrider]

You should check your stator for output - a new r/r won't fix a shorted stator ....and There's lots of info on the "series" type R/R here on the site but

...I've been using the Honda ones from your list on all my Suzukis (and Hondas) without any problems..had one one my '82 GS650 too. It was pretty easy to mount a SH232 or similar from old Goldwings or Silverwings under the battery box on it...it's a good spot for moving air to cool it but they are pretty rugged .....but likely all of those in your list will work if they are REAL and not ebay knockoffs. The GS stator can only put out 15-20 amps so a rating of 30-50 amps is safely "overmatched".

But they are generally bigger than the original suzuki ones and as noted in the list the holes won't line up so you'll have to tinker a bit. The connectors vary too. It's easier to connect one that has wires coming out of it versus a connection port. These add to the bulk when fitting it and you need find a connector that fits... but on your 650, under the battery box you won't really have the bulk as a particular issue....under a sidecover, beside the solenoid and ignitor and what all, it's a tight fit.

The R/Rs on newer bikes use FETS and theoretically run cooler than the older SCRs in the older ones on your list...and various "reputable" sites will offer them as brand new replacements. I haven't had one- but my experience with early fets is that they were easy to blow so I'd be MORE leery of 2nd hand ones

 

[Big T]

You're having stator problems?
how many AC volts did your test reveal?

 

[Nessism]

I don’t know if the GS650G has less problems, but when after forty years service my original regulator/rectifier began showing 15+ Volts I simply swapped in a new original spec shunt one from Ricks. https://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com...gulator-10_212. It’s now been 20,000 km and a few seasons and my onboard voltmeter shows a steady 13.5 - 14.5 Volts at 2,500 to 5,000 rpm, with good charging, lights and reliable starts.

I figured if the original r/r could last forty years and 35,000 km then a new one should be fine. No wiring work needed, just twenty mins to pull the old one and plug it in and go.

If your harness melts down, don't say we didn't try to warn you. :culpability:

 

[Admiral Beez]

If your harness melts down, don't say we didn't try to warn you.

This is why I’m rarely here anymore. Anyone who goes against canon gets a knock. I anticipated a sarcastic dismissal, but I thought what the heck, I’d try to contribute by sharing my experience. Clearly my original r/r ran for four decades without melting its harness. The new one made to the original spec has now run for nearly three years and 20,000 kms without melting its harness. All connectors look fine, charging is fine. In this rider’s experience there’s nothing wrong with the Ricks Motorsport r/r. But I think I’m done with this forum, we just throw too much shade onto one another. Peace.

 

[Rich82GS750TZ]

Admiral, I believe you’re being a bit sensitive. You can take Ed’s advice or not. He’s tested bunches of the SH775s and reported his findings for the good of the order. You’re doing the same. No one is throwing shade or disparaging you for going another route, just expressing a difference of opinion. There can be more than one right answer.

 

[650Skull]

Ok no bickering please.

Admiral Beez, Any comment is appreciated. My bike ha only done 15,000klm and there is a problem with the charging system. Although we are still in the diagnostic stage i cant say for sure what it is or if my son hasn't tested it properly. Still some confirmation to come.

Situation is the bike is in NZ and i am in Australia. My son. Started it the other day and told me the stater is not putting out a charge. I have read up about, and knew of the problems associated with the Factory Reg/Rect from doing research on here.

I am in the process of sending information on how to test the Stater and voltage at the battery, (going off the manual), to try to pinpoint the exact problem and/or component.


I am going to upgrade the Reg/Rect irreverent to whether it is faulty or not as per all the information i have read and as you guys, so nicely, have answered my query. Appreciated all your input, thanks.

As i am a cheapskate and as times have changed, or i should say it seems some Mosfet R/R are ok even though they are still shunt types, (opinions on this are welcome),

I am looking at cost, (no Chinese knockoffs) and cost effectiveness, between a Series and Mosfet type, because over here in Aus and NZ it is around the $300 + mark to buy a Series R/R with out the stater, that is also around the $350 + mark.

If anyone can recommend a reputable retailer, who sells the R/R and Stater I can save a few $'s by buying from the states and posting to here even with the exchange rate.

Had a search on Fleecebay for second hand, (off the list i posted) and it's just not worth it.

Found this mob,

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=FORSETI+re...ages&ia=images

did a search for reviews and did find them favorable..........Note to myself, would be to use with caution and with the expectation it may not last

https://www.2fiftycc.com/index.php?t...tifiers.10578/

Are the Later DL1000 R/R ok to use on the GS650. I have read they can be used

The thing is I will be making trips to NZ a couple of times, (maybe 3), per year for a month at a time. I am semi retiring next month and want to spend time with my Grandchildren and have a vehicle for independence wile i am there......Yea right a 40 year old bike that wont need any work done on it..........Probably spend half the time working on it

So please any feedback on what i am doing or the parts i have linked to is most welcome.


@Gorminrider
The R/Rs on newer bikes use FETS and theoretically run cooler than the older SCRs

Could you explain the difference between FETS and SCR's....I'm guessing SCR's are shunt types

 

[Nessism]

@Gorminrider
The R/Rs on newer bikes use FETS and theoretically run cooler than the older SCRs

Could you explain the difference between FETS and SCR's....I'm guessing SCR's are shunt types

Those FET FH-XXX type units have more advanced components than the older type SH units, but they are still shunt type. We try to avoid shunt R/R's on GS charging systems because they put your stator under stress by returning unused power created by the generator back to the stator, where it's converted to heat.

Here is a link to a thread about installing a shunt type Honda R/R on a GS. The math shows that 11.5% of the users had a stator failure after doing this.
https://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...-R-Users-Poll=

As mentioned, the Shindengen SH775 is a SERIES type R/R, and will protect your stator.

Here is one selling on eBay.au https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/334550004607

It seems to be shipping from the US, though. I can't see the price for shipping on my end, but a USPS small flat rate box costs $43 USD.

I sometimes snap up cheap SH775's from eBay, test them on my bike, then resell here for a little beer money profit. I've got a couple now, but you can get them cheaper by searching out the deals yourself. Honestly, I've yet to find one that didn't work. I have found them with broken plastic connectors, though. That's the only real risk.

Polaris, Harley, Indian, Sea Do, Canam, and no doubt other companies, are using SH775's, or have in the past.

If you just don't have the money, I'd target one of the old SH2xx or SH5xx units that use the sense wire. Those units never fail, and should be dirt cheap. The FHXX units are more money, and not worth it, in my opinion.

 

[Gorminrider]

..........
@Gorminrider
The R/Rs on newer bikes use FETS and theoretically run cooler than the older SCRs

Could you explain the difference between FETS and SCR's....I'm guessing SCR's are shunt types.........

BOTH can be used in "shunt" types OR "series" types. The acronyms refer to the components that redirect current ("shunt") or interrupt current (''series" ...which is easy to understand as a kind of off/on relay on the path of current...very much like the mechanical relays that controlled the field in generators found before alternators were a thing, I might add)

So...you can look them up on wipedia but roughly, per the components, scr = silicon control rectifier while fets are "field effect transistors" .the "mos"in "mosfet" =metal oxide semiconductor.

fets ...well, I recall the little ones can even be "pierced" by static electricity but that was 20 years ago when I was tinkering with them. A fancy, encased R/R should be pretty reliable.They switch very quickly and then should contribute to a lower heat...theoretically.... The scrs on the other hand were awfully rugged but, not exactly as quick as an off/on switch... they could get hot where the gate current was not full-on,and thereby the base wasn't "saturated".... if that makes sense to you


Nobody has reported many problems with the fancy series ones but the old goldwing or whatever R/Rs should be cheap and in junkpiles everywhere... There was a member here collecting and selling them reasonably (Dwayne?) There really isn't a lot of difference among a lot of the shunt r/rs similar to the honda ones...but Suzuki had a 'different" idea in the early 80's...the headlight loop was integral to their theory.





[/QUOTE]

 

[bonanzadave]

I sometimes snap up cheap SH775's from eBay, test them on my bike, then resell here for a little beer money profit.

Next time you get thirsty (beer) I would take you up on that offer......

 

[Nessism]

This is why I’m rarely here anymore. Anyone who goes against canon gets a knock. I anticipated a sarcastic dismissal, but I thought what the heck, I’d try to contribute by sharing my experience. Clearly my original r/r ran for four decades without melting its harness. The new one made to the original spec has now run for nearly three years and 20,000 kms without melting its harness. All connectors look fine, charging is fine. In this rider’s experience there’s nothing wrong with the Ricks Motorsport r/r. But I think I’m done with this forum, we just throw too much shade onto one another. Peace.

Here is another point of view...

There are literally thousands of posts here from people suffering stator failure. People here have learned from the school of hard knocks that a shunt type R/R will put your stator under excess stress because of the way the shunt R/R functions; any leftover power created by the generator that's not consumed by the bike, will be "shunted" or returned to the stator, where it's dissipated as heat. This is why SERIES type R/R's are recommended by the members here; it extends stator life by eliminating this needless stator heating, which leads to damage.

Further, Suzuki knew this, which is why, when the bikes were first designed in the 1970's, they routed one leg of the stator output up to the hand control to the headlamp switch, thus reducing the generators power output when the headlamp was turned off, during daytime riding. Problem, though, a bunch of excess current flowing from the stator, up the harness through several feet of harness wire, up to the hand control, and then back, is a lot of needless wire, and as the harness ages, particularly the harness connectors, a bunch of resistance builds in the wires. Also, as we know, for the US market, the "always on" headlamp law was passed for motorcycles, yet the extra run of wires up to the hand control remained. Bottom line: as resistance builds in this needless run of wires, the wires run hot, and can melt down the harness.

So, we have a system stacked for failure. Too much wiring, building resistance with each passing year, and a shunt R/R, which by design puts the stator under excess stress.

Most members here have learned about these shortcomings, and when they need a new stator or R/R they target a series type, and they eliminate the needless stator loop wiring up to the hand control.

You on the other hand were warned about these things but purposefully ignored the hard learned data. You spent more money on a Ricks R/R, then it would have cost you to install a SH775. You also ignored the warnings about the excess wiring, "stator loop."

Saying your charging system is functioning fine is understating the situation; just because your bike is charging well now, doesn't mean that your stator isn't suffering heat damage with each passing mile. Not to mention, your harness is likewise continuing to build resistance as high current is passing though it needlessly.

Going against the member's teaching here is sort of an insult to the people that are trying to help guys like you, but whatever. You are free to make your own decisions. By blatantly going against forum wisdom, though, you can expect some comments to the contrary, including a dig now and again. Either stand up for your choices in life, or don't. It's your decision.

 

[Grimly]

My two cents...
When I installed a series SH-775, I deliberately left the half-cooked old stator in place to see how long it would last. That was in 2015 and it's still working fine.
I'm utterly certain a shunt r-r would have completely toasted it in short order.
I think though, that I've proved to myself how good the series is in preserving the stator and I get slightly nervous about how much longer it might have, so I'll probably replace it for peace of mind.

 

[tom203]

I also left my half baked stator in when I went the SH-775 route in 2013……was still working fine in my last ride in October 2021. I was in process of moving so bike went into hibernation…..be interesting to see how blue Stabil does in spring 2023…if we all survive.

 

[Suzukian]

I am not going to get into which Regulator/Rectfier brand works best, frankly, I don't know.

The problem that causes this with Suzuki's of that era is that Suzuki only regulated the Voltage on one leg of the Stator. The other two legs were Rectified, but NOT Regulated and allowed to run up and down in voltage swings, and any corrosion on the ground wire, especially the one that goes to the engine and is grounded to a painted surface, relying on the threads to ground (dissimilar metal = electrolysis = corrosion = loss of ground) and your wiring system burns up, most of the time taking the Stator with it, or diminishing it's output.

I fixed my '83 GS750ES (which I purchased new, assembled it out of the crate) by purchasing a "NoSports" Stator that put out 20% more voltage. I used a Voltage Regulator/Rectifier off of a Kawasaki 1100 (Thank You EBAY, $20 bucks). a massive unit with heat stinks on it, that is mounted under the fuel tray now (had to make a little bracket for it). I routed the 3 wires from the Stator directly to the Regulator/Rectifier and ran the +/- wires directly to the battery. I removed almost 6' feet of useless wire from the harness just but snipping the ends, and pulling it out, they were all Stator wires No problems for 8000 miles.. I am a Certified Electronic Technician, had a T.V. repair shop for 10 years, did audio, almost anything that I could fix.

This problem has plagued many otherwise fantastic Suzuki motorcycles from that era. I remember seeing GS1150 in beautiful condition "has electrical problems' going for $1000 dollars. I wish I had purchased all the bikes I saw, as everyone knows what the problem is now, and those bikes aren't cheap anymore..

No insult intended to anyone, just my experience.

 

[650Skull]

Those FET FH-XXX type units have more advanced components than the older type SH units, but they are still shunt type. We try to avoid shunt R/R's on GS charging systems because they put your stator under stress by returning unused power created by the generator back to the stator, where it's converted to heat.

Here is a link to a thread about installing a shunt type Honda R/R on a GS. The math shows that 11.5% of the users had a stator failure after doing this.
https://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...-R-Users-Poll=

As mentioned, the Shindengen SH775 is a SERIES type R/R, and will protect your stator.

Here is one selling on eBay.au https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/334550004607

It seems to be shipping from the US, though. I can't see the price for shipping on my end, but a USPS small flat rate box costs $43 USD.

I sometimes snap up cheap SH775's from eBay, test them on my bike, then resell here for a little beer money profit. I've got a couple now, but you can get them cheaper by searching out the deals yourself. Honestly, I've yet to find one that didn't work. I have found them with broken plastic connectors, though. That's the only real risk.

Polaris, Harley, Indian, Sea Do, Canam, and no doubt other companies, are using SH775's, or have in the past.

If you just don't have the money, I'd target one of the old SH2xx or SH5xx units that use the sense wire. Those units never fail, and should be dirt cheap. The FHXX units are more money, and not worth it, in my opinion.

Thank Ed. I'll try to get the one you linked to off Fleecebay

 

[Nessism]

I am not going to get into which Regulator/Rectfier brand works best, frankly, I don't know.

The problem that causes this with Suzuki's of that era is that Suzuki only regulated the Voltage on one leg of the Stator. The other two legs were Rectified, but NOT Regulated and allowed to run up and down in voltage swings, and any corrosion on the ground wire, especially the one that goes to the engine and is grounded to a painted surface, relying on the threads to ground (dissimilar metal = electrolysis = corrosion = loss of ground) and your wiring system burns up, most of the time taking the Stator with it, or diminishing it's output.

I fixed my '83 GS750ES (which I purchased new, assembled it out of the crate) by purchasing a "NoSports" Stator that put out 20% more voltage. I used a Voltage Regulator/Rectifier off of a Kawasaki 1100 (Thank You EBAY, $20 bucks). a massive unit with heat stinks on it, that is mounted under the fuel tray now (had to make a little bracket for it). I routed the 3 wires from the Stator directly to the Regulator/Rectifier and ran the +/- wires directly to the battery. I removed almost 6' feet of useless wire from the harness just but snipping the ends, and pulling it out, they were all Stator wires No problems for 8000 miles.. I am a Certified Electronic Technician, had a T.V. repair shop for 10 years, did audio, almost anything that I could fix.

This problem has plagued many otherwise fantastic Suzuki motorcycles from that era. I remember seeing GS1150 in beautiful condition "has electrical problems' going for $1000 dollars. I wish I had purchased all the bikes I saw, as everyone knows what the problem is now, and those bikes aren't cheap anymore..

No insult intended to anyone, just my experience.

I'm not an electrical expert, but I can't find evidence in the factory manual that Suzuki only regulated one leg of the stator output. The system circuit diagrams in the manual look like every other shunt type regulator, other than the dumb head lamp switch element on one leg of the stator output (which the US market bikes don't use.) Please share how you came to your conclusion about the deficient Suzuki system. I'm fully aware of the poor grounding scheme for the R/R on many, if not most, GS bikes, and I'm also aware that Suzuki really cheaped out on the R/R, as evidenced by their size, but in terms of circuitry internal to the R/R, I don't see any deficiency other than they are shunt type.

What I do know, is that the reason stators burn out on GS bikes is because the generator makes too much power for the bike's needs, then the excess power is shunted back to the stator by the R/R, causing overheat damage. Running a high-power stator, which apparently you are doing, is going in the opposite direction of need, unless you have added a bunch of electrical accessories to the bike to reduce excess power. Incidentally, Kawasaki KZ bikes don't burn stators like GS bikes. Reason being, the generators are lower powered, thus there is less power to shunt back to the stator. In fact, installing a Dyna S on a bike like a KZ550 can overwhelm the charging system, because the generator output is not designed to support additional current draw.

And BTW, can you provide a link to a "NoSports" stator? I can't find any reference to this brand anywhere.

 

[Suzukian]

My bad on the alternator name, it's "ElectroSports", it was a very long time ago. ( Link = http://www.bikerperformance.com/elec...87-p11360.html )

My source was the factory Service Representative, who told me when I worked at a Suzuki Dealership, and my Techtronix 100 Mhz O'scope. This fact is so well known, and no, the generator does not produce too much electricity (voltage, and Generators produce amps!), (Ohm's Law, E/IxR, P/IxE) a lot of this is because it's not a generator, it's an Alternator. My "ElectroSports" alternator produces 20% more voltage than stock. That's why a motorcycle cannot charge a dead battery, Older cars (as in my 1973 MG Midget) has a huge generator and you can bump start it, go for a 100 mile ride, and have a full battery, of course, being an MG, going for a 100 mile ride is an accomplishment in itself!

I fix circuit boards for anything down to component level. I am one of the few in the area that does that. I won't go over my credentials with you. Not necessary. Use the info or don't. That's up top you. All Rectified, only one leg Regulated, a horrid design. Some of you guys are going through way too much trouble, as most modern R/R's will work on anything with 3 legs, and turn it into DC, Geez, you could make you own Wheatstone Bridge with a heat sink and bang one of these out with a DC to DC converter attached. Just buy a used on off of EBAY for a big bore machine, and you won't have any problems. They're cheap,the Suzuki Stator coils(mine anyways) is bathed in oil, so overheating is not an issue. Do you know how to take 4 diodes and convert A/C to pulsating DC? See picture below.

I am a State of Connecticut Certified Electronic Technician with a V1 license. I won't say "expert" as there is always more to learn, but from T.V.'s, to audio systems. designing speakers, and installing $100,000 dollar Garmin Radio Stacks in aircraft, and trouble shooting those kind of units, I've done quite a bit.

 

[Gorminrider]

Nessism ...um... Suzuki's ND R/Rs were different than most...here's the diagram from my 650 manual...



note there are only two scrs...the good ol' "common type has 3 scrs -one for each leg. (also note the "darlington" to up the current to the scrs' gates...haha I did try to mention there's a thing about scrs...an FET wouldn't likely need this as they're voltage sensitive rather than current...?)

But that aside, the suzuki circuit "should" work fine but relies on more things being right- the light switch for one.... and IMO -really the problem with these ND r/rs was the lack of heatsink...mine sure got hot.

 

[Gorminrider]

here's a honda R/R sh232 or 238 or the like on many other bikes...It ddoesn't show the circuit feeding the gates of the scrs but it's going to be similar to the diagram above...