82 GS1100E pod filter adventure/problems

[timbaux]

A few weeks ago, i posted about the wiring issues that I had with putting together a bike that i had to take completely apart, powder coat the frame, and then put it all back together. A few of you pointed me to solutions for wiring diagrams and headlight bucket wiring... GS Whisperer was one of the ones who contributed to helping me through that.

I got the bike completely back together. My uncle built the motor, and i was able to watch,, the only thing i was not sure about was the DOHC set up, since i am more of a smallblock chevy dude, and can build them easily. The bike fired right up.

First mistake i made was buying the cheap pod filters. Those have a lip on them, where the filter meets the mouth of the carburetor, and on the Mikunis i have, stock carbs, there are notches that need to be cut in the lip, and by the time you cut the four notches for the small air passages, and then the big one that is at the top of the mouth of the carb, there is nothing to hold to filter body against the mouth of the carb. The rubber is not rigid enough.

I got K&N pods on the way.

The problem, though, is that the bike, with or without filters, does not accelerate, just flattens out under acceleration. Sometimes it seems to starve for fuel and dies on me at at idle, or as i try to take off.

From the time i got the motor back in, I have had the Sigma jet kit in the carbs. It tells you to run the air/fuel mixture screws all the way in, and then back them out (1 and 4 is one less turn out, i think, than 2 and 3, but i do know they are different). I had to drill a hole in the barrel, change the jet sizes, and then they were kind of vague about shimming the needles.

I left the stock shim on and added another one. Now, I am thinking that I should go up two more shims on each needle.

I got the carbs off, and i am going to pull the plugs, get a reading, and then decide whether to play with the air fuel mixture or shim the needles.

If anyone has any suggestions, I am all ears.

 

[posplayr]

Do the mains first. And above all else get those mains set!

https://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?226128-CV-Carb-Turning-Procedure

and 1100E is pretty cookie cutter, so if you specific exactly the configuration of you bike with respect to how it differs from stock you can receive a pretty good guess (within one or two steps) of what setting you should have.

If you went pods and pipe you need a jet kit! Dynojet 3133 (stage 3)

https://www.denniskirk.com/dynojet/stage-1-and-3-jet-kit-3133.p171840.prd/171840.sku

I see you are using a Sigma Jet kit. Don't know anything about it, but the CV turning guide should still work. A lot of turning will be based on the specific needle. For example, the Factory Pros needles use an entirely different main jet than the DJ. Unless someone has specific experience I would say ask Sigma to help you. It shoudl be no great mistery what to do based on DJ experiences for decades and they (Sigma) should understand the DJ setups because of this large historical DJ brain trust.

 

[timbaux]

Motor completely stock... Vance & Hines street exhaust with baffle... K&N pod filters (not yet installed).

I am going to pull the plugs when i get back to the bike, and see what turns up... I think the bike is fuel starved, rather than rich. Will post what i find out.

Actually, the Sigma jet kit consists of main and pilot jets, a drill bit for for the slides, and some shims.. No needles. Some have said go with Dyna Jet,, i am trying to make this kit work, if not, i can lick my wounds and move on to Dyna Jet, i just think this is something i can fix, once i zero in on the problem.

 

[posplayr]

Motor completely stock... Vance & Hines street exhaust with baffle... K&N pod filters (not yet installed).

I am going to pull the plugs when i get back to the bike, and see what turns up... I think the bike is fuel starved, rather than rich. Will post what i find out.

Actually, the Sigma jet kit consists of main and pilot jets, a drill bit for for the slides, and some shims.. No needles. Some have said go with Dyna Jet,, i am trying to make this kit work, if not, i can lick my wounds and move on to Dyna Jet, i just think this is something i can fix, once i zero in on the problem.

Good luck; you are on well-trodded ground .

Basically, you buy the DJ kit for the needles. The stage 1 ket is worthless; I have never heard of anybody using it and the Stae 3 is OK if you are bone stock and 4:1 with K&N pods.

And you need to change the pilot jet from 45 to 47.5 which is not in the DJ kit.

 

[timbaux]

Good luck; you are on well-trodded ground .

Basically, you buy the DJ kit for the needles. The stage 1 ket is worthless; I have never heard of anybody using it and the Stae 3 is OK if you are bone stock and 4:1 with K&N pods.

And you need to change the pilot jet from 45 to 47.5 which is not in the DJ kit.

Thanks! Going to see what happens when i pull the plugs. I am not sure what the Sigma kit pilot jets were..Appreciate your help!

 

[Guest]

If anyone has any suggestions, I am all ears.

It sounds lean from your description.

Do the mains first. And above all else get those mains set!

https://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?226128-CV-Carb-Turning-Procedure

I would say that is completely backwards as you can't get onto the mains until you sort the pilot circuit and needles. However, YMMV.


Mark

 

[posplayr]

It sounds lean from your description.




I would say that is completely backwards as you can't get onto the mains until you sort the pilot circuit and needles. However, YMMV.


Mark

Well, everybody if free to do it their own way. You can also "pi$$ into the wind" .

The link I posted is stocky of Factory Pro's proprietary tuning method. Maybe you should go tell them how to do it?

I only used a full set of instrumentation and optimized my tuned on one bike. So I don't know much about it.

https://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?164565-AFR-Info&highlight=AFR+Info

 

[Guest]

The link I posted is stocky of Factory Pro's proprietary tuning method. Maybe you should go tell them how to do it?

Their method is OK when fine tuning a bike that already runs pretty well, which is the situation when putting a slip on can and stage 1 jet kit on a factory stock bike. It doesn't translate well when starting from scratch on a completely new set up.

FWIW, I didn't say you don't understand what you are doing. I think you are quite competent. I said the FP method is backwards and it is for tuning a new combo from scratch.


Mark

 

[posplayr]

Their method is OK when fine tuning a bike that already runs pretty well, which is the situation when putting a slip on can and stage 1 jet kit on a factory stock bike. It doesn't translate well when starting from scratch on a completely new set up.

FWIW, I didn't say you don't understand what you are doing. I think you are quite competent. I said the FP method is backwards and it is for tuning a new combo from scratch.


Mark

OK Mark, He has a stock bike and a customize jet kit from Sigma specific to his bike. If you don't think this is close enough for the FP tuning procedure will work ........................then I don't know what to think.

 

[timbaux]

I hope i have not been misleading... but I pulled the plugs, and i guessed it all wrong. All four plugs were wet, and black. I missed big time.

To give you an idea of the magnitude of the changes I made... like I said, they call for the two outer cylinders to be one size smaller main jet than the inside. Also, when they said to run the air mixutre screws all the way, and then back them out, they had me back the two inner cylinder carbs out a half turn, I believe, more than the two outer cylinder carbs..

I looked through the fiche at Babbitts website, and i found the following....

The stock main jets are 112.5, the jets in the Sigma kit were 130 for the outer cylinders and 133 for the inner cylinders. ....

The stock pilot jets are 45 and i have 45s in the the outer cylinders, and i believe 47.5 in the inner cylinders.

I may have messed up with the needle shimming, and will find out tomorrow.

The Honda dude that is helping me out told me to go up to 120 (at the highest) on the mains, maybe 117 would be better he thinks...and put the same jet sizes all the way across. As for the pilot jets, he says put 45's all the way across. That leaves basically two things..... the issue of air fuel mixture screws adjustment, and the shimming of the needles.

What puzzles me is the bike has run from day one on either pod filters that were definitely not sealed, and sometimes with no filters at all, and when i pulled the spark plugs and saw the whole thing is very RICH, I was surprised at how far I missed on my guessing.

Thanks again for your suggestions, and I look forward to seeing what yall think i should do from here.

 

[Guest]

OK Mark, He has a stock bike and a customize jet kit from Sigma specific to his bike. If you don't think this is close enough for the FP tuning procedure will work ........................then I don't know what to think.

The FP procedure will work in all cases, I think. The reason it is backwards for a new setup is that the lower circuits affect the upper ones. So if you set your main and then set the pilots and needle you have to go back and check the main again, then check the needle again if the main jet changed. If you work from the bottom up you seldom have to go back and redo anything.

The stock pilot jets are 45 and i have 45s in the the outer cylinders, and i believe 47.5 in the inner cylinders.

If the Sigma jets are the same size as the OEM jets then I would suggest you use the 47.5 pilot jets with all 4 the same.


Mark

 

[timbaux]

The FP procedure will work in all cases, I think. The reason it is backwards for a new setup is that the lower circuits affect the upper ones. So if you set your main and then set the pilots and needle you have to go back and check the main again, then check the needle again if the main jet changed. If you work from the bottom up you seldom have to go back and redo anything.




If the Sigma jets are the same size as the OEM jets then I would suggest you use the 47.5 pilot jets with all 4 the same.


Mark

Ok,,, i think what I will do is put the 45 pilot jets in, leave the needle shims as they are (they have an additional shim over stock), and turn the mixture screws in half a turn (like i said before, they said to back the two middle cylinder carbs out an extra half a turn or maybe a full turn... i will find out and put all of the them same). I am going to see if i can find 117 main jets. I am more concerned about it being overly rich. I do not race the bike, and I dont go over 70 mph on any of my bikes, so i am not worried about wide open throttle i just want the 1100 to run as good as the 1150 and 550 i have.

I gotta clean up the spark plugs put them back in and then i will wait until i get my K&N pod filters, supposedly tomorrow evening, and see what happens. thanks again, and if anyone else has something to add, please do. thanks

 

[Tom R]

It’s been scientifically proven that 75% of all carb related issues are actually ignition problems.... and 75% of all ignition issues are actually carb related... food for thought.
Did you put the rubber plugs over the pilot jets?
Just as a reference, when I bought my gs1100 it had aV&H 4-1, pods, a shimmed stock needle, 47.5 pilots and 142.5 Mikuni main jets. It ran pretty good. I’ve since switched to factory pro needles, and it runs better in the mid range, about the same on the top end... still settled on 142.5s after stepping up and down on jet sizes.

btw - I’d just replace the spark plugs.

 

[timbaux]

It?s been scientifically proven that 75% of all carb related issues are actually ignition problems.... and 75% of all ignition issues are actually carb related... food for thought.
Did you put the rubber plugs over the pilot jets?
Just as a reference, when I bought my gs1100 it had aV&H 4-1, pods, a shimmed stock needle, 47.5 pilots and 142.5 Mikuni main jets. It ran pretty good. I?ve since switched to factory pro needles, and it runs better in the mid range, about the same on the top end... still settled on 142.5s after stepping up and down on jet sizes.

btw - I?d just replace the spark plugs.

Thanks for your reply. I really thought it would be done when it was on the lift and we started it up the first time..ran so good... When i actually tried to ride it, though, it felt like it was sucking air and not going anywhere fast. Then i got the cheap pods and had to notch them and it was never a good fit after that.

I am pretty sure the needle shimming is sufficient, i am going to leave that alone. I will try to find the 47.5s and I am not sure about the main jets. If it will run with the 130s, i will keep them. i am mostly concerned about driveability. It is so erratic right now. Will turn the air fuel mixture screws in..if they will let me use the 4-gauge set, i can sync and also aim for 14.5 with the air fuel mixture.

Surprised you ended up with 142.5 jets.. i was thinking of going the other way, but i gotta get the idle and lower rpm range decent before i can worry about anything above 5000 rpms..

thanks man!

 

[Rob S.]

No offense to anybody, but there are a lot of conflicting opinions here (do mains first; no do mains last.) Full disclosure: I am not a DIYer. Never really was. Never rebuilt an engine (car or bike), but did a couple of engine swaps on cars ('68 Camaro a VW Bug) single handed.

Read countless accounts of just your problem, and many chime in that they would put the stock airbox back on and the bike would run perfect for countless miles.

I took a different route. I investigated many 'builders/tuners/racers' in my general area. I was fairly convinced after a phone call, but one visit to his shop was enough to know I was in the right place. He specializes in turbo charging Huyabusas, plus he's got an old KZ1000 built to the max. They're all registered, inspected and insured, completely street legal. They'll all do 200+ mph, and put out between 200 and 300 rear wheel horsepower.

The one disagreement we had was on my first visit, I wanted my bike road tested. He said, "No, we don't do that. There's no need to. We tune it on a dynamometer." I argued, he explained dyno tuning is much more accurate than road testing. Buttom line, I won't let any other mechanic touch my bike.

Result: it started fine, idled beautifully, and pulled from idle to redline like a beast. Not a single cough, stutter or sputter. Every time I pick the bike up from him, he says, "this bike runs really great." I always reply, "thanks to you."

I can't remember reading about anyone on this site getting the jetting so perfectly dialed in on their own.

But I wish you well. If you've got the time, it will at least be a learning experience.

 

[timbaux]

No offense to anybody, but there are a lot of conflicting opinions here (do mains first; no do mains last.) Full disclosure: I am not a DIYer. Never really was. Never rebuilt an engine (car or bike), but did a couple of engine swaps on cars ('68 Camaro a VW Bug) single handed.

Read countless accounts of just your problem, and many chime in that they would put the stock airbox back on and the bike would run perfect for countless miles.

I took a different route. I investigated many 'builders/tuners/racers' in my general area. I was fairly convinced after a phone call, but one visit to his shop was enough to know I was in the right place. He specializes in turbo charging Huyabusas, plus he's got an old KZ1000 built to the max. They're all registered, inspected and insured, completely street legal. They'll all do 200+ mph, and put out between 200 and 300 rear wheel horsepower.

The one disagreement we had was on my first visit, I wanted my bike road tested. He said, "No, we don't do that. There's no need to. We tune it on a dynamometer." I argued, he explained dyno tuning is much more accurate than road testing. Buttom line, I won't let any other mechanic touch my bike.

Result: it started fine, idled beautifully, and pulled from idle to redline like a beast. Not a single cough, stutter or sputter. Every time I pick the bike up from him, he says, "this bike runs really great." I always reply, "thanks to you."

I can't remember reading about anyone on this site getting the jetting so perfectly dialed in on their own.

But I wish you well. If you've got the time, it will at least be a learning experience.

Thanks for your reply.

Enjoyed reading your story and glad you got your bike sorted out and it is running great.

What did you end up with? What size jets, main and pilot? What about needle shims?

Would be interested in knowing what they came up with. i do have the Vances and Hines street megaphone exhaust as you do. My K&N pods should arrive today or tomorrow.

I am trying to get the mixture screws right so that it no longer idles rich, and i guess i am starting at idle and worrying about the wide open throttle stuff last.

My bike is all stock, and, to answer Tom's question, yes, i did put the rubber plugs back over the pilot jets.

Thanks again, and hope you can share what jet sizes you ended up with.

 

[Nessism]

When you shimmed the needle how did you do it? In order to lift the needle you need to remove the fat plastic washer on top of the clip and replace with a stack of washer that are thinner than the original plastic washer. Placing shims under the clip does nothing on Suzuki Mikuni's.

 

[timbaux]

When you shimmed the needle how did you do it? In order to lift the needle you need to remove the fat plastic washer on top of the clip and replace with a stack of washer that are thinner than the original plastic washer. Placing shims under the clip does nothing on Suzuki Mikuni's.

i will find out today. I am not sure. The kit had instructions and whatever it said that was what i did. I am going to check today. I probly should have bought a dyna jet kit.

 

[timbaux]

I am away from the bike but i found this on YouTube, and though its not the same carb, it is what i remember doing. I left the stock spacer on and added one silver shim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_wWHJArWD0

Is this contrary, Nessissim, to what you are saying, or the same as what you are saying. I am not a bike expert, just asking. I was under the impression that you raise the needle by adding shims, not by removing the spacer and putting a thinner shim in its place. I am guessing here, really, and appreciate any help offered.

 

[Nessism]

I am away from the bike but i found this on YouTube, and though its not the same carb, it is what i remember doing. I left the stock spacer on and added one silver shim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_wWHJArWD0

Is this contrary, Nessissim, to what you are saying, or the same as what you are saying. I am not a bike expert, just asking. I was under the impression that you raise the needle by adding shims, not by removing the spacer and putting a thinner shim in its place. I am guessing here, really, and appreciate any help offered.

About 7 out of 8 mins of that video are dramatically out of focus. What makes people post stuff like that? No pride of workmanship. Anyway, I've posted the correct answer and if you search the forum here you will get confirmation. You can also check the carb rebuild tutorial as linked in my signature and on Basscliff's website for more info.