carb to fuel injection Builders Log

[beingblueeyes]

I don’t know where to put this and this seemed like a good enough place
(i did a search looking for a place to put a log by typing "Builders log" and there was a letter to the editors about making a sub forum about it back in 07 that never took off)

After rebuilding the carbs 2 times and messing with them for a week and a half trying to get them to run right and idle right I’m tossing in the towel on the 50's technology and upgrading to fuel injection

As I see it there are pros and cons

pro's:
Easier starting
More fuel adjustability 0-10000 rpm
No more carb cleaning
Easier to adjust (no more taking carbs off to adjust fuel floats/jets)
Better MPG
Cleaner burning (smaller carbon foot print if you’re into that kind of thing)
More power

con's:
Cost
Space
Time
Need laptop

so after weighting the pros and cons out in my head, I decided to convert to fuel injection using megasquirt some of you on here have done the conversion (chances are that I will be asking you for help at some point) but with all my looking I didn’t find one pic (the links I looked at were all broken) of a complete setup or a DIY on how to do it. With that put out there this is my saga. I’ll start this work log by saying the parts i have and then the parts I need as a reminder to myself

Parts I have:
Throttle bodys (2 inch OD on the motor side. forgot what they came from)
Fuel rail w/ FPR
Injectors
throttle body intake boots (I looked at some of the topics about intake boots and fallowed a link to a page were they were selling intake boots that would work on a carbs up to 40mm OD and that’s 10mm to small so I did some looking and found some intake boots off of a 2006 Kawasaki 636 Ninja that look like the ones that would fit the head and have a much bigger hole. after I get them I will fit test and get back to you on fitment)

Parts I need:
Fuel lines
Fuel pump (I’m thinking a external 80 lph will be more then what I will ever use)
Megasquirt 1
Megasquirt wiring harness
Sensors
Modify the fuel tank for the return fuel line

pics of the intake boots that i hope will work that are being shipped to me

more as it happens

 

[Go Mifune]

I cant wait to see this project unfold. Definately keep us posted.

 

[beingblueeyes]

Ok today?s work
I gutted the Throttle body?s of the secondary butterfly plates and took of the fuel rail and injectors. Here is a comparison between the CV carbs and the new Throttle body?s from unknown bike (if you recognize them please let me know what bike there from, it would help)

Front

Back

a big issue from when I adapted motorcycle Throttle body?s to cars was the throttle cable length, holes size and fitment but THE STOCK GS550 TB CABLE FITS AND WORKS!!!

Mock up with Throttle body?s sitting roughly in place. there is a fitment issue and there will need to be spacers made, not a huge problem but still a problem in the way. I?m not going to tackle that until I get the other Throttle body boots in the mail so I know exactly how big the spacer needs to be

more as it happens

 

[Dogma]

I cant wait to see this project unfold. Definately keep us posted.

Ditto. Fuel injection is definitely on my list of things to do someday, and that day gets closer when someone else figures out the hard parts.

 

[beingblueeyes]

Ditto. Fuel injection is definitely on my list of things to do someday, and that day gets closer when someone else figures out the hard parts.

Pushing into and beating the hard parts is what makes it fun (and keep my mind focused and after all "a idle mind is the devil play ground"

Ok I got board after lunch today and didn?t have anything coming in for a bit so I decided to take off the stock intake boots. I tried shocking the threads but those 30 year old screws just wouldn?t let go. So using one of my 3/8 12 point sockets and a small extension and a hammer I got them all off. (I don?t know if anyone has done this) I put the socket and small extension together and then taped to on top of the screw head and then used my ratchet to break the screws free and it worked great.
Needless to say I ill not be using them when i put it back together

more as it happens

 

[oshanac]

"(and keep my mind focused and after all "a idle mind is the devil play ground" Great quote-so true! This is a VERY INTERESTING BUILD! Do keep us posted and good luck. I want so bad to put a FI Busa motor in my GS, but I want to keep that historic look to her. The TB don't stand out too much to the general public, so you get to keep most of the cool old school look!

 

[beingblueeyes]

Thank you all for your support. a FI Busa motor would be sich in just about anything
Including a wheel chair (like the one from that Steven king movie “the silver bullet” )
I’m going to start out on the fuel pump and lines since the intake boots haven’t shown up yet. After looking at the space was the stock air box was I realized it was way too small to mount the fuel pump and megasquirt there. I’m going to have to put the fuel pump in the gas tank. I’m looking at a car 255 lph in-tank car pump (great pumps I used them lots on turbo car builds) since the pump has a filter "sock" on the bottom of it and each injector has a tinny filter on the inlet I think I can save some more space by not running another fuel filter. I have the fuel lines figured out going in and out of the tank but I’m haven’t come up with anything yet on how to get the fuel pump wires out of the tank (wheel giving it a stock appearance and having a fuel tight seal) I’m thinking tomorrow about looking at the fuel level sending unit and maybe sodomizing it somehow to get the wires out that way. Any other ideas would be great

more in the morning

 

[tkent02]

Those throttle bodies look huge, might be ok for drag racing but I bet the power comes on like a switch when you touch the throttle.

 

[RJ]

I would look into one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/80-K...c0.m245&_trkparms=72:1171|65:12|39:1|240:1318

It's an external fuel pump made for a motorcycle that should easily fit in the airbox space and give you plenty of fuel. I would not recommend using a pump designed for a car on a 550. Super overkill and you'll burn out your electrical system trying to run the thing. Gpz 1100 fuel pumps are similar and are what a lot of FI conversions utilize.

 

[ArttuH]

Good luck for your project! Looking good by this far.

The throttle bodies could be off from a CBR900 954, maybe. I also guess that they might be slightly large for your engine but you never know before trying

One thing to keep in mind is current consumption. Output of the generator isn't too plentiful on these old bikes. The most significant consumer in EFI system is the pump so it's a good idea to try find the most optimal pump. Excessive capacity means unnecessary current draw. Unfortunately I can't suggest any perfect solution for this. Some in-tank pump from a modern bike could be a good choice. Old kawa GPZ1100 pump is also pretty good in this sense, it draws only about 3A.

If you are interested there are some pictures about my EFI installation on my web pages.
EFI installation few years ago: http://www.iki.fi/arttuh/mopo/en_summary.html
More about that in Finnish but also more pictures: http://www.iki.fi/arttuh/mopo/index.html (click links on the bottom to switch the page)

 

[Sunburn]

After rebuilding the carbs 2 times and messing with them for a week and a half trying to get them to run right and idle right I?m tossing in the towel on the 50's technology and upgrading to fuel injection

Fuel injection first appeared in the late '50's on some production cars. Did not become so important until computers and EPA standards. It's amazing how well 4 stock carbs can work on a bike already 25 years old. But just for the cool factor, Fuel injection would be great

 

[beingblueeyes]

I would look into one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/80-K...c0.m245&_trkparms=72:1171|65:12|39:1|240:1318

It's an external fuel pump made for a motorcycle that should easily fit in the airbox space and give you plenty of fuel. I would not recommend using a pump designed for a car on a 550. Super overkill and you'll burn out your electrical system trying to run the thing. Gpz 1100 fuel pumps are similar and are what a lot of FI conversions utilize.

the only problem I?m having with a fuel pump is that I?m a "car guy " I haven?t a clue when it comes to what is a high psi pump to what is a carb pump when it comes to bikes. 255 lph is way way way way way more pump then I would ever need on the 550. I still like the idea of putting the pump in the tank just for the space aspect of it but cutting a hole then welding brackets in the tank and so one would be a mega chore. i will have to look into the gpz pumps.

Good luck for your project! Looking good by this far.

The throttle bodies could be off from a CBR900 954, maybe. I also guess that they might be slightly large for your engine but you never know before trying

One thing to keep in mind is current consumption. Output of the generator isn't too plentiful on these old bikes. The most significant consumer in EFI system is the pump so it's a good idea to try find the most optimal pump. Excessive capacity means unnecessary current draw. Unfortunately I can't suggest any perfect solution for this. Some in-tank pump from a modern bike could be a good choice. Old kawa GPZ1100 pump is also pretty good in this sense, it draws only about 3A.

If you are interested there are some pictures about my EFI installation on my web pages.
EFI installation few years ago: http://www.iki.fi/arttuh/mopo/en_summary.html
More about that in Finnish but also more pictures: http://www.iki.fi/arttuh/mopo/index.html (click links on the bottom to switch the page)

You did one hell of a fine job! Where did you get such a small megasquirt box?!?!? is it the micro squirt?? The megasquirt 1 there selling on DIY web site are over 7 inches long (unless I want to get a micro squirt that costs 460$ )

Fuel injection first appeared in the late '50's on some production cars. Did not become so important until computers and EPA standards. It's amazing how well 4 stock carbs can work on a bike already 25 years old. But just for the cool factor, Fuel injection would be great

I stand corrected on the time when "fuel injection" first came out



I spent more of the morning looking around the net/ebay for fuel pumps and trying to figure out what kind of tb?s they were so I know what kind of bike it was from so I could get the injector flow rates. (I tried to check out the cbr 900/954 throttle body?s but I couldn?t find a pic of them) I know the throttle bodies are made by Mikuni and that?s about it the injectors are ?Denso 4BD? and they don?t show up on any of the fuel injector flow rate charts I have. No physical progress made yet today

 

[duaneage]

I would think small not large when doing this because the 550 is a small bike. Too much fuel pressure or capacity might be a problem. How are you going to manage the fuel delivery? FI needs a closed loop to monitor itself so are you installing O2 sensors in the pipes downstream?

Another aspect is spark timing and control. FI likes to manage that too and read temperature and air pressure too. Do the units have temp and MAP sensors built in or do you need those in an airbox somewhere?

 

[tkent02]

I would think small not large when doing this because the 550 is a small bike. Too much fuel pressure or capacity might be a problem. How are you going to manage the fuel delivery? FI needs a closed loop to monitor itself so are you installing O2 sensors in the pipes downstream?

Another aspect is spark timing and control. FI likes to manage that too and read temperature and air pressure too. Do the units have temp and MAP sensors built in or do you need those in an airbox somewhere?

It's all built in with the Megasquirt... It runs open or closed loop, your choice. You can use your old ignition or let the Megasquirt handle that too.
Read up on it, it is a very nice system for us do it yourself types.

 

[beingblueeyes]

is there an upgraded stator that I could put in? or could i have the stator re wound to give more watts/out put at the same voltage? what about a stator off of a bigger bike (i dont know if motor size has anything to do with stator output. im just shooting in the dark)

 

[ArttuH]

[You did one hell of a fine job! Where did you get such a small megasquirt box?!?!? is it the micro squirt?? The megasquirt 1 there selling on DIY web site are over 7 inches long (unless I want to get a micro squirt that costs 460$ )

Thanks!

The box is my own design. Actually there are two versions of them in the pictures. Older one in aluminium colored box contains just basic Megasquirt functionality. Later one seen on the turbo page (black box) has all kind additional features supported by extra-code. Like two ignition drivers, knock and EGT sensor interfaces, some power outputs and so on.

Yes, the original Megasquirt box is rather large to fit in a bike. And the connectors are not too reliable in wet environment.

 

[beingblueeyes]

Thanks!

The box is my own design. Actually there are two versions of them in the pictures. Older one in aluminium colored box contains just basic Megasquirt functionality. Later one seen on the turbo page (black box) has all kind additional features supported by extra-code. Like two ignition drivers, knock and EGT sensor interfaces, some power outputs and so on.

Yes, the original Megasquirt box is rather large to fit in a bike. And the connectors are not too reliable in wet environment.

do you sell them?
also dose anyone know the output of a stock 550 stator?

 

[Old Colt]

I myself would defiantly NOT use that Walbro pump you are thinking of.
You will need about 50LPH and the Wabros are very inefficient as far as power consumption to start with. The KZ pumps mentioned will be more than adequate.
As for the Megasquirt I would highly recommend the MS2 processor, it is much more stable. I have seen many resets with the MS1 many of which will make you walk home.

The TB adaptors should not be an issue but you would be well served to pull the head and port it.
Here are the adaptors on my 550 for the 29mm smoothbores. These were converted when the bike was new back in 79.

Granted it is a much different setup from what you are doing but the bike just comes alive when you let it breath.

 

[beingblueeyes]

I myself would defiantly NOT use that Walbro pump you are thinking of.
You will need about 50LPH and the Wabros are very inefficient as far as power consumption to start with. The KZ pumps mentioned will be more than adequate.
As for the Megasquirt I would highly recommend the MS2 processor, it is much more stable. I have seen many resets with the MS1 many of which will make you walk home.

The TB adaptors should not be an issue but you would be well served to pull the head and port it.
Here are the adaptors on my 550 for the 29mm smoothbores. These were converted when the bike was new back in 79.

Granted it is a much different setup from what you are doing but the bike just comes alive when you let it breath.

well walking home is never fun (I’ve never walked home but i have walked several miles down the side of a highway to a gas station to call a wrecker 3 times) and looking at it that way maybe the megasquirt 2 is worth the extra money, with that later on I can upgrade and control the spark as well. tell me more about what cade the MS1 reset? right now i am geting ready to order my megasquirt but i still dont know what one i want to go with. I would port the head but this is just going to be a test head after I get it running the way I want I want to do a head and piston swap to a 4 valve head.

I do need a very very fast answer. Would this fuel pump work?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1993...4186802QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesZX7R ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP

 

[Old Colt]

If I am correct the 93 ZX7 is a carbureted bike, that would be a low pressure pump.

I will get more answers to you in the morning.