Hard to select neutral?

[SPARKSS]

One thing I noticed on my new bike is its kinda hard to select neutral, when I toe up on the lever it wants to go into second. If I reach down and do it by hand I can get it into neutral, and it shifts fine otherwise.

Is this common? Something you get a feel for, or something that can be adjusted? Might be kind of annoying in city riding.

Thanks,
Skye

Does this happen any differently when the engine (and transmission of course) is cold vs hot? What is the idle rpm when you've noticed this? What sort of play is in the shifter? Is the engine oil level correct? Have you noticed whether the clutch operator has any wasted motion (play....cable adjustment to remove - etc).

I'd say that a most common cause for your situation (without any other history) would be high idle speed. You need to break torque within the transmission in order to move the shifter properly and if significant pressure is required to do so (due to the engine idling fast and if aggravated by ANY clutch drag), then the shifter will abruptly move right through the neutral spot and into the next gear dog. A high engine oil level and/or use of high viscosity oils and/or additives (see below) can cause clutch drag with may be worse cold (or sometimes hot). Anything that causes drag will make shifting notchy (and especially finding neutral predictably).

Does the bike shift INTO gear from neutral smoothly or does it lurch or have a noticeable notch? This will be symptomatic of both clutch drag and/or high engine idle.

As others have referred to, the clutch can be an aggravating factor but I'll say that this isn't real common. Yes, having an extra plate will probably reduce clearances when released and, if clutch work was done recently it may not be burnished in yet (clutch may drag with more uneven surfaces etc). If OIL ADDITIVES were added (usually a poor idea) they can affect wet clutch friction characteristics.....maybe even swelling of organic friction surfaces......this will cause drag. One reply referred to the clutch basket as a possible problem area - and this can be true as the clutch guide splines always develop a wear pattern where normal operation occurred. Changing to new plates or especially adding a plate often moves the operating area to a spot where it may bridge a worn spot and a lesser worn spot.....causing notchy operation.

 

[mighty13d]

It can be annoying to not able to hit neutral

 

[dpep]

That's not the way they were designed. Neither of my bikes ends up in neutral by accident but I can 'find' neutral on both bikes, very easily, from either 2nd or 1st. That's the way they were built and mine just happen to still be that way. I'm sure many others are, as well.

Chucky, sometimes when you move your shift lever up from first you are trying to go to second gear, and sometimes you are trying to get into neutral. What do you differently between the two? Which action takes the most attention? Which one is most similar to the action required to move into the third, fourth, and fifth gears?

I agree with some others here that coming down from second seems a little easier than up from first, at least with the engine off. I may rock it forward or back till it engages and then tap down lightly.

 

[Buffalo Bill]

Neutral between 3rd and 4th, easy?

Neutral between 3rd and 4th, easy?

I found this thread late, but I hope somebody has a clue about this. I have the same problem finding neutral as anybody, but sometimes shifting from 3rd to 4th, I find neutral instead.
I was blaming myself for not shifting firmly enough, but really neutral should not be waiting between 3rd & 4th. like a sand trap.:-k
Does this mean that some nicks have developed on the cog teeth?

 

[jmanz6]

Nicks in the gears wouldn't cause a false neutral. Missing teeth wouldn't even cause it. If the shift fork isn't going all the way to the next gear that could cause it. You can get neutral between every gear but it should be VERY difficult to do. I had a dirtbike that would sometimes hit a neutral between 4th and 5th gear but the transmission on that bike was trashed. It would whine like a banshee in every gear even after changing the oil.

 

[tkent02]

I found this thread late, but I hope somebody has a clue about this. I have the same problem finding neutral as anybody, but sometimes shifting from 3rd to 4th, I find neutral instead.
I was blaming myself for not shifting firmly enough, but really neutral should not be waiting between 3rd & 4th. like a sand trap.:-k
Does this mean that some nicks have developed on the cog teeth?

If you get in the habit of a deliberate shift it shouldn't go half way between gears, just push firmly on the lever, make sure you feel the entire movement correctly. Doesn't have to be a slow shift, just pay attention to it. One of my 1000s has a neutral between 4th and fifth, but it hasn't gone there except twice when I first discovered it.
If it gets bad enough to require repairs, it could be a problem with incorrect shimming in the transmission itself, or possibly something worn on the shifter parts under the clutch. Could be other things too.
I am no expert with this, have never been there on a GS.

 

[Steve]

If you absatively, posilutely HAVE to shift into neutral from first, get a Kawasaki.

They have a feature built into the shifter and transmission that prevents shifting from first into second unless the bike is moving. Makes it a real pain to bump-start the bike because you have to use first gear, but otherwise is a nice feature.

For those of us on Suzukis, make sure your clutch parts are correct, levers and cables properly adjusted and the oil is proper quantity and viscosity. If you feel that you have to have neutral while at a stop, it is easier to select it just before coming to a complete stop.

.

 

[C.V.]

I found this thread late, but I hope somebody has a clue about this. I have the same problem finding neutral as anybody, but sometimes shifting from 3rd to 4th, I find neutral instead.
I was blaming myself for not shifting firmly enough, but really neutral should not be waiting between 3rd & 4th. like a sand trap.:-k
Does this mean that some nicks have developed on the cog teeth?

This is why so many people have a hard time finding neutral, they're looking in the wrong place!

 

[Kerry]

Might be a clutch adjustment is required. I recall with my old Yamaha that it became increasingly hard to find neutral over time; then I began to notice that, with the clutch squeezed, application of throttle made the bike want to move forward. A clutch adjustment solved all.

On my GS, sometimes I've noticed that it's a bit hard to find neutral from 1st - I give a tiny blip to the throttle; seems to make it easier.

P.S. Slippery streets coming home yesterday. My riding season is OVER. I'll have to rely on the GSR to tide me over 'til spring!

 

[Billy Ricks]

It's not just a matter of clutch cable adjustment either. On many bikes there is an adjustment that needs to be made to the pushrod that runs through the tranny to the clutch.

 

[mikluha]

I had this issue with the nuetral when I just got my bike (1980 GS1000). It turned out to be the clutch cable was on it's way out and misadjusted.
Replaced the cable and now the shifts to neutral is like cutting the butter.

 

[Don-lo]

The most common cause of this I have found are the steel plates: they become "bowl" shaped after many heat cycles (or abuse?). This is then exaggerated when they are taken out to replace the fiber plates and put back in randomly. I always take the steel plates together as a stack and flip each successive one. You will see obvious gaps when you find a bowled one, and those will cause constant drag when sandwiched between the fibers.

 

[Dogma]

The most common cause of this I have found are the steel plates: they become "bowl" shaped after many heat cycles (or abuse?). This is then exaggerated when they are taken out to replace the fiber plates and put back in randomly. I always take the steel plates together as a stack and flip each successive one. You will see obvious gaps when you find a bowled one, and those will cause constant drag when sandwiched between the fibers.

Good one. Added it to my winter list.

 

[boathead]

i got my 650G in July, and had the problem from day one. never once could i find neutral from 1st. right before i put the bike up for the winter, i put some seafoam in the crankcase and rode it awhile.

the oil when i changed it was gunked up like you wouldn't believe, and voila', i was finding neutral. maybe just gunked up clutch plates?

 

[Guest]

Adjust your chain up properly.Cheers,Simon.

 

[Marvey]

I have this experience with my GS1100GK.

It doesn't seem to be relative to heat, but here in Az, that may be a relative thing. Abuse isn't much of a factor, I take 2 3 and 4 up to about 6k before shifting.

This thing has always been this way and the original owner (I am second) didn't seem like the type to put an aftermarket ANYTHING on this bike. He may have gotten high on the real thing and thrown a Barnett in there though, who knows.

When at idle in traffic or when parking and I can't find neutral, holding the clutch in and revving up a bit while I try to find neutral from first usally works. When that doesn't work, it buys me second and I can easily downshift into neutral from there.

Bike doesn't lurch in first with clutch in, either.
I always chalked this up to "emotional" problems that old bikes have. A finite resolution to the problem if it is one would be intersting.

 

[1978GS1000custom]

ok here it goes, with age or abuse or high temp comes wear. everything shifts via the shifting forks within the trans. the forks have shims that govern exactly where they need to be when a shift is made. once the idle gear gets some main shaft wear it will coast to a stop instead of a drag stop which prevents the shifting fork from engaging into the desired shift(in this case nutural). all bike have this issue not just our gs bikes. harleys are really bad in this area (sloppy as what even brand new). the GS trans case is alum, the main shafts are steel and the gears are either steel or cast with bronze shims. all of these metals react differently to temp which is why sometimes when they are hot its harder to find netural (a good oil cooler helps this). if you want to fix it you need to inspect these clearences and shim the forks until the back lash in the shift fork is within tolerance (+/- .0005) in most cases. also inspect the idel gears bushing inside diameter to make sure it didnt wear oversize causing that spin down effect (.001 oversize will produce this problem). most people dont like going into the trans but with a good manual its really quite easy to understand. of all the transmissions i have built the suzuki is by far the most heavy duty and easy to pull and reset. clutch drag will also cause this to a extent but not entirely. most of the time doing burn outs or really getting down on the throttle helps these parts wear out. still functioning but not as new. if you dont want to go inside the trans you can always remember that, old bikes are like old people they have a unique personality thats not hard to get used to if you try. sorry about the spelling

 

[SNott]

I think I just needed to get used to the bike, I have no problem finding neutral now. Or maybe the bike was getting used to me

 

[GS750GUY]

I'm really getting into this thread late regarding finding neutral. I have had this problem as well with my 78 GS750EC. Last weekend a friend of mine and I were out for a ride and he noticed my idle seemed a little fast. It was idling at about 1200 rpm and he told me to bump it down to right at 1000. He also suggested finding neutral on the roll is a lot easier than trying to find neutral when stopped.
I found he was right!
GS750GUY

 

[bonanzadave]

***off topic alert***

***off topic alert***

of all the transmissions i have built the suzuki is by far the most heavy duty and easy to pull and reset.

Hey Mr. 1978GS1000, Thats comforting to know. I hope you stick around cause it sounds like you have mega info to share.

Im guessing by your home page that you are Cliff. We have our own Cliff here and if you introduce yourself in the GS Owners section you may get his Mega welcome with all sorts of useful MC info from his home page.

Im not a huge tat fan but it looks like you do great work. Welcome to the GSRs !!