Ooops. I guess it's my turn ...

[Cipher]

There is politics and religion but these never come close to oil in terms of controversy. No one can keep still in the presence of an oil thread.
Aside from being of a stellar slipperiness what changes in hydrodynamics occur in synth oil to make it such a clutch destroyer?

Or were your steels and fibres already on the way out?

 

[storm 64]

""Synthetic oils typically have stronger detergent packages in them, so they tend to wash away at the clogged pores uncovering any leaks that have been there all along but clogged""

That's all I need to hear to convince me to stay with non synthetic motor oil. I don't want the stronger detergents washing away at my pores causing leaks.

 

[TxGSrider]

""Synthetic oils typically have stronger detergent packages in them, so they tend to wash away at the clogged pores uncovering any leaks that have been there all along but clogged""

That's all I need to hear to convince me to stay with non synthetic motor oil. I don't want the stronger detergents washing away at my pores causing leaks. 

I guess I'll step into this because it sounds like a fun topic.
Going with what we "may" have learned here about synthetics, along with a couple previous posts, lets take it to its logical conclusions... It may have flow easier so it may find leaks easier. It may have more detergents so it may clean away small pore leaks. It is more resistant to heat breakdown (and thus turning to carbon particles), so the little pieces of carbon that might ordinarily gather in small places and block leaks are less likely to form and more likely to wash away. So all of this points out one thing to me... you've got a leaky gasket that needs to be changed. lol!
I mean lets face it, if it is just some pieces of crud floating around a motor keeping a gasket from leaking, then its time to fix the gasket.. and change the oil. lol!

 

[storm 64]

But my motorcycles don't have any leaks, so what gaskets do I need to change? I'm not going to switch to synthetic motor oil with stronger detergents to find out... My motorcycles are loving life with regular dino Rotella and annual oil changes...

 

[Cipher]

annual oil change? dear lord you cannot be driving much. Higher mileage change intervals are nice but an MC really does not get much chance to benefit from truly bitter cold starts. I remember years ago when I first used synth in the 80s. -30celsius is hard on starters. I left my oil jug in the truck overnight and in the am was amazed to find the liquid was almost water like in spite of the freezing temps. Dino would have run like molasses.

What is replacing a few seals compared to a drive train or gears or pistons and rings though?

 

[Wingsconsin]

On my Goldwing I have had some oil testing done -
I sent samples off to Blackstone Labs to get the reports.
One test was on Synthetic oil with about 4000 miles on it. (Came back near perfect-they recommended a longer run)
The next test was 6800 miles (Came back as all good still but ready to be changed soonish)
Now that is a liquid cooled engine so the extremes are less - but full synthetic for longer runs is a good idea in my opinion.

STEVE -- Yes my experience also indicates that synthetic with better flow properties will REVEAL a leak sooner than Dino oil (detergents also?)
But the leak was already there...

 

[storm 64]

But my motorcycles don't have any leaks, so what gaskets do I need to change? I'm not going to switch to synthetic motor oil with stronger detergents to find out... My motorcycles are loving life with regular dino Rotella and annual oil changes...

Cricket Cricket...

 

[Steve]

Cricket Cricket...

Huh? Not following you on that one, Norm. :-k

.

 

[Nessism]

Huh? Not following you on that one, Norm. :-k

.

He's just being a jerk. Dismiss.

 

[ddaniels]

I read a very long article years ago on synthetic oil vs. Dino, and for some reason, the one thing I remember is that, synthetic oil molecules are all the same size, which is kinda small. Dino oil, however has a variety of molecule sizes. What this meant to the guy writing the article is that since synthetic molecules are all the same smallish size, they flow better...and are able to make their way through potential leak spots, where Dino oil may not.

 

[Dogma]

Huh? Not following you on that one, Norm. :-k

.

He's just being a jerk. Dismiss.

I think he was replying to TxGSrider, who appeared to be responding to Norm instead of Steve when he recommended replacing the gasket. The cricket remark seems to be a snarky way of saying TxGSrider had no answer to his question about which gasket he needs to replace. I've never seen Norm like that in person, but I've never seen anyone annoy him either. But I suspect it's all based on misunderstanding. This has become an oil thread, after all.

What confuses me is Norm's willingness to have his engine held together by the dirt when he keeps his bikes so clean and pretty on the outside. I thought letting the dirt hold it together was my thing. Maybe the increased risk of getting the shiny outside oily is too much?

Personally, natural oil is good enough for me in normal usage. Synthetic doesn't have extra detergents by nature, that's something that is or isn't added just to sell it, right? That said, I'm thinking about getting some synthetic to put in the 1000G for the track day in August, just for increased temperature tolerance.

 

[Dogma]

I read a very long article years ago on synthetic oil vs. Dino, and for some reason, the one thing I remember is that, synthetic oil molecules are all the same size, which is kinda small. Dino oil, however has a variety of molecule sizes. What this meant to the guy writing the article is that since synthetic molecules are all the same smallish size, they flow better...and are able to make their way through potential leak spots, where Dino oil may not.

I don't think you can correlate molecule size with flow properties. For example:

 

[storm 64]

He's just being a jerk. Dismiss.

A Jerk??? Yeah, I resemble that remark. But more village idiot. Lol☺

However, I don't think my engines are "dirty" on the inside. I keep the oil changed and all necessary maintenance kept up. At 47,000 miles on the 850, I don't think I'm doing any harm to the engine by using non synthetic oil. The GS engine was designed to run non synthetic in the first place. And I never got service bullen from Suzuki to switch to synthetic...

Oh, TxGSrider wasn't annoying me. I was just having constructive conversation about the use of synthetic motor oil. All's good��

 

[TxGSrider]

I think he was replying to TxGSrider, who appeared to be responding to Norm instead of Steve when he recommended replacing the gasket. The cricket remark seems to be a snarky way of saying TxGSrider had no answer to his question about which gasket he needs to replace. I've never seen Norm like that in person, but I've never seen anyone annoy him either. But I suspect it's all based on misunderstanding. This has become an oil thread, after all.

What confuses me is Norm's willingness to have his engine held together by the dirt when he keeps his bikes so clean and pretty on the outside. I thought letting the dirt hold it together was my thing. Maybe the increased risk of getting the shiny outside oily is too much?

Personally, natural oil is good enough for me in normal usage. Synthetic doesn't have extra detergents by nature, that's something that is or isn't added just to sell it, right? That said, I'm thinking about getting some synthetic to put in the 1000G for the track day in August, just for increased temperature tolerance.

For what its worth to everyone, I really don't believe that synthetic based oils cause leaks, flow significantly easier compared to a conventional oil with the same weight that has been serviced regularly, or even have a higher detergent level that a similar conventional oil rated for wet clutch motorcycles. I do believe it has more resistance to heat and changing to carbon and should have a longer service life. I was just having some fun with the points that were brought up. Could carbon particles plug up potential small leaks? I guess it could, but again, Id rather not use that as my technique for keeping my bike oil leak free. Its like leaving your car dirty to protect the paint. lol

I use conventional oil sometimes, sometimes I use synthetics, I'm more concerned with the additives have been removed from most modern day oils that can help in keeping sliding parts (camshafts in particular) from grinding away, and the additives that they do contain that can effect the wet clutches. I try to stick with the Delo and Rotella that still contain the additives that help protect the "non roller" (flat) cams that are used in our bikes.

I wasn't trying to insult anyone, just saying if carbon and crud is whats keeping the oil from leaking, then maybe its time for a new gasket or seal.

 

[TxGSrider]

A Jerk??? Yeah, I resemble that remark. But more village idiot. Lol☺

However, I don't think my engines are "dirty" on the inside. I keep the oil changed and all necessary maintenance kept up. At 47,000 miles on the 850, I don't think I'm doing any harm to the engine by using non synthetic oil. The GS engine was designed to run non synthetic in the first place. And I never got service bullen from Suzuki to switch to synthetic...

Oh, TxGSrider wasn't annoying me. I was just having constructive conversation about the use of synthetic motor oil. All's good��

I didn't take it that way at all. My response to the leaking gasket that needed to be changed was to Steve.

 

[storm 64]

I'm sorry Steve for jacking your thread and turning it into a oil debate. Good luck on your engine work. I'm sure everything will work out for you. Heck, you probably like having to work on your own motorcycle for a change. ☺

 

[Steve]

OK, it's been a while since I updated this, but I have taken advantage of the situation to fix a few other things, as well.

Replaced the valve cover gasket (which didn't look all that bad), ran the bike for a bit, did not see any fresh oil.

Now I need to get it all back together from all the other 'stuff' I have fixed, soak it in degreaser and hose it off.
Then I get to take it for a ride to see if I need to do anything else to it. :encouragement:

.

 

[Wingsconsin]

OK, it's been a while since I updated this, but I have taken advantage of the situation to fix a few other things, as well.

Replaced the valve cover gasket (which didn't look all that bad), ran the bike for a bit, did not see any fresh oil.

Now I need to get it all back together from all the other 'stuff' I have fixed, soak it in degreaser and hose it off.
Then I get to take it for a ride to see if I need to do anything else to it. :encouragement:

.

Glad to know its getting fixed.
If you need a place to ride to....ride to Wisconsin and prepare to get an 850 running again ..LOL

 

[Steve]

Glad to know its getting fixed.
If you need a place to ride to....ride to Wisconsin and prepare to get an 850 running again ..LOL

Compromise? Meet you in Missouri. :encouragement:

.

 

[Allie]

Synthetic oil is magical. It has supernatural powers.

The only thing it can't do is repel rust on Jeeps.