It's three phase, remember.
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Stater and Reg/Rect problems on 82 GS650Ez
- Thread starter 650Skull
- Start date
It's three phase, remember.
I don't know exactly how much hotter the stator runs on a Shunt R/R bike vs. Series R/R bike, but Jim (Posplayr) posted this interesting chart in his profile album. He also posted a photo of a low mileage "high output" Electrosport stator that's suffered overheat failure (when he was using a shunt R/R, thus began his study of Series R/R's.)
And as I said earlier, Kawasaki KZ bikes have lower output charging systems, and they don't burn out stators nearly as often. Less power and heat generated = less damage.
Oh, and BTW, SH775's came on a range of different bikes, not just snow mobiles. In fact, there is a higher power derivative Shindengen Series R/R used on the V-Strom, for example. Big bikes like this often get fit with accessories which increase electrical load, so the manufacturers set them up with a high power "generator/alternator",but without this load the stator takes a pounding from heat...thus the Series R/R.
stator current by nessism, on Flickr
stator burn by nessism, on Flickr
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Back in 2013 before I swapped in the SH-775 unit, I used a clamp on AC current meter to measure the 3 phase line current output feeding into the existing SH-232 shunt unit. Leg current was running about 11 amps at 4000 rpms …power output then was about 270 watts total. Swapping in the series unit produced a leg current of about 6.5 amps….power output then was about 160 watts which is apparently all bike needed to run happy. The surplus 110 watts was just baking the stator needlessly.
From "Electrosport":
"ESR100 is a high quality regulator/rectifier that replaces the not-so-reliable OEM regulator on many older Suzukis. Power handling of our ESR100 regulator/rectfier is superior, and this part is a plug in replacement on many Suzuki models. We have incorporated a heat sink that gets rid of internal heat to the housing quickly and efficiently, making for a very reliable unit. This regulator/rectifier regulates all three phases coming from the stator, unlike the stock unit which only regulates 1 or 2 phases (depending on the model). Three phase regulation is a major step towards reliability on these Suzuki GS models. Like all regulator/rectifiers manufactured by ElectroSport ESR100 also comes with a full one year warranty.:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ElectroSpo...-Rectifier-for-Suzuki-GS-models-/162045208136 (scroll to bottom of page).
"ESR100 is a high quality regulator/rectifier that replaces the not-so-reliable OEM regulator on many older Suzukis. Power handling of our ESR100 regulator/rectfier is superior, and this part is a plug in replacement on many Suzuki models. We have incorporated a heat sink that gets rid of internal heat to the housing quickly and efficiently, making for a very reliable unit. This regulator/rectifier regulates all three phases coming from the stator, unlike the stock unit which only regulates 1 or 2 phases (depending on the model). Three phase regulation is a major step towards reliability on these Suzuki GS models. Like all regulator/rectifiers manufactured by ElectroSport ESR100 also comes with a full one year warranty.:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ElectroSpo...-Rectifier-for-Suzuki-GS-models-/162045208136 (scroll to bottom of page).
From "Electrosport":
"ESR100 is a high quality regulator/rectifier that replaces the not-so-reliable OEM regulator on many older Suzukis. Power handling of our ESR100 regulator/rectfier is superior, and this part is a plug in replacement on many Suzuki models. We have incorporated a heat sink that gets rid of internal heat to the housing quickly and efficiently, making for a very reliable unit. This regulator/rectifier regulates all three phases coming from the stator, unlike the stock unit which only regulates 1 or 2 phases (depending on the model). Three phase regulation is a major step towards reliability on these Suzuki GS models. Like all regulator/rectifiers manufactured by ElectroSport ESR100 also comes with a full one year warranty.:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ElectroSpor...-/162045208136 (scroll to bottom of page).
Okay, I believe you that the original Suzuki R/R didn't regulate all three phases, but I don't think this is a significant factor in the charging system health.
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dpep
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When GS Resources (now The GS Resources) first started up back in the late 90's Electrosport was a sponsor, in fact its only one. That is how prevalent stator/rr failures were.on GSs. They were assumed. This site may owe its existence in part to large numbers of riders coming together over their shared charging problem(s).
It's what caused these particular bikes to eventually fail. Other bikes failed for other reasons,but these particular Suzukis really had a bad R/R design, which dissipated no heat, and Regulated only one, never saw one that regulated 2 wires from the Stator, On my bike, only one leg of the Stator was regulated. I have helped many people with 3 wire Stators do the simple fix on their bikes that had 3 leg Stators, and all those bikes are still running, or were when they person sold them. My Stator was Black and charred on one side, and that shorted out the coils, and the bike could not generate a charge anymore. I don't know what went first, but that's like the Chicken or the Egg conundrum. I think that they were bathed in oil helped dissipate the heat.
It's what caused these particular bikes to eventually fail. Other bikes failed for other reasons,but these particular Suzukis really had a bad R/R design, which dissipated no heat, and Regulated only one, never saw one that regulated 2 wires from the Stator, On my bike, only one leg of the Stator was regulated. I have helped many people with 3 wire Stators do the simple fix on their bikes that had 3 leg Stators, and all those bikes are still running, or were when they person sold them. My Stator was Black and charred on one side, and that shorted out the coils, and the bike could not generate a charge anymore. I don't know what went first, but that's like the Chicken or the Egg conundrum. I think that they were bathed in oil helped dissipate the heat.
How did the R/R design cause the stator to fail?
Not so much the R/R, more how the R/R was wired.
Look at a wiring diagram.
In the stator all three legs/phases are connected in the middle. This is called a delta, and it means the electrical potential on all three legs HAS to be the same... they're connected.
Trace the wiring away from the stator. One leg goes to the regulator and rectifier, one leg goes to the rectifier only and one leg goes to the light circuit. In this setup the regulator is "parallel" to the charging circuit
The idea with the lights is that they run on AC current and they drag the voltage down, sorta like a regulator. (Some Suzuki engineer got a raise for this design. Worked great... when it was new, 45 years on... not such a good idea anymore, aged like milk).
When there is excess power in the circuit, the regulator dumps, or shunts this excess power to ground. When the regulator drags the voltage down on this one leg, it drags the voltage down on the other legs, through the delta connection in the middle of the stator.
So the problem is the three phases all have different loads that, for reasons that are beyond this discussion (the phases lose "sync"), creates a TON of heat in the stator.
When you install a "series" regulator, you have to modify the wiring, to put the R/R in "series" with the charging circuit, so all three phases get regulated and rectified EQUALLY, balancing the load on the three phases of the stator, phases are in "sync", lots less heat in the stator.
Not sure what this means, but when installing a "series R/R" like a SH775 or a Compufire, there is no modification to the wiring necessary. Although, it's always best to eliminate the stupid stator loop wiring up to the hand control.
While much of this discussion regarding amps, ohms, and watts goes over my head, I'm fairly certain that no electrical component on the bike runs on un-rectified AC current. It's my understanding that the headlight gets its DC power after the fuse box, after the R//R, like every other component. The on/off switch, on bikes where there is a operable switch, let the AC power in that long g/w then r/w stator leg that goes through the left hand control go on through to the RR. On bikes w/out an operable switch (headlamp always on), that leg is essentially always carrying 1/3 of the stator ouput to the RR, it's just way longer than it needs to be w/ more connections than it needs to have, providing more opportunity for corrosion in contacts to cause resistance/heat/melting.
Am I wrong? Serious question. Always willing to learn.
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This is correct. The stator loop through the hand control does not feed the bike. It's a pass through circuit (from stator to hand control, then back to R/R), when the headlamp is ON, and disconnected when the headlamp is OFF.
In effect, the charging system switches from three-phase w/headlamp on, to one-phase (two stator feeds = one phase charging system) when the headlamp is off. Maybe this is why the original R/Rs only used two SCR's?
You're right. I didn't look close enoughWhile much of this discussion regarding amps, ohms, and watts goes over my head, I'm fairly certain that no electrical component on the bike runs on un-rectified AC current....
When the lights are off, the third leg off the stator gets disconnected from the rectifier. Turn the lights on, the W/G gets connected to W/R, which goes to the rectifier.
With the headlight ON, you have a three phase alternator, with the headlight off, you have a two phase alternator
I apologize, it's been a while since I looked at this... in my defense, running the lights off unrectified AC is a popular thing on dirt bikes, scooters and the like. A lot of the old two stroke scooters have AC CDI's... and guess what I am working on at the moment
.... well except you're putting put the regulator in series with the circuit instead of parallel to the circuit. It's not a big wiring change, but it's a big electrical change. You're moving where the regulator is in the circuit, which makes a more balanced load on the stator... and less heat.
In the stock setup the rectifier is in series with the charging circuit, but the regulator is beside the circuit or in parallel, with a series R/R BOTH the regulator and the rectifier are IN the charging circuit
Does that make sense to you?
I understand that a "series" regulator is in series with the load, and a shunt regulator is in parallel with the load.
My post was higher level, in reference to how the R/R is installed in the bike. The "series or parallel" business relates to circuits inside the R/R unit, not to external wiring.
um..couple of points of "curiousity ". Empirically, nobody with Series R/Rs has complained about losing stators this way but per It's not the voltage that kills stators, it's the current." I'm going to say, "that is, depending on the quality of the insulation". because shutting the stator's output off and on causes voltage spikes ....I remember seeing these in posplayer's other stuff. Voltage spikes do have the possibiltiy of piercing insulation with very little current... they can leap where a low voltage cannot. AKA spark plugs...but that's a curiousity.
as I understand it...when you generate electricity in the stator leg , it has its own magnetic field contrary to the rotor's magnets and it defines the stator's limit as well as being a source of heat (it's not so much the windings but that's a finepoint seeing as "too hot" is still a result of current flowing)...but when the path through R/R is interrupted, it spikes. Its a voltage potential looking to go somewhere and it's a high voltage potential because there's no current flow... This explains somewhat why when you test a stator's "open" voltage on a meter, it's 60-80v. That's partly because of the high resistance the meter is offering as a path (and the meter's capability to test AC that isn't 60cycle?)...but hooked up to the bike, the stator's voltage falls to slightly above what's on the other side of the regulator because the current has a path.."above", because it needs a 1/2 volt or so to cross the scr or fet... so for what it's worth, the stator is always at a higher potential than ground. It's only path to to ground is through one of these scrs or fets
as I understand it...when you generate electricity in the stator leg , it has its own magnetic field contrary to the rotor's magnets and it defines the stator's limit as well as being a source of heat (it's not so much the windings but that's a finepoint seeing as "too hot" is still a result of current flowing)...but when the path through R/R is interrupted, it spikes. Its a voltage potential looking to go somewhere and it's a high voltage potential because there's no current flow... This explains somewhat why when you test a stator's "open" voltage on a meter, it's 60-80v. That's partly because of the high resistance the meter is offering as a path (and the meter's capability to test AC that isn't 60cycle?)...but hooked up to the bike, the stator's voltage falls to slightly above what's on the other side of the regulator because the current has a path.."above", because it needs a 1/2 volt or so to cross the scr or fet... so for what it's worth, the stator is always at a higher potential than ground. It's only path to to ground is through one of these scrs or fets
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And.......right back to over my head again. All I know, and I think what's important to most people who may read this thread in the future (If they make it through the p;ssing contest) is, for the cost of a good used SH775 ($50-60 last I looked), and a new stator if yours is burnt up (mine is also from Electrosport), some time spent establishing a good SPG (single point ground), eliminating the headlamp loop, cleaning up old/and creating good new connections throughout the charging system, you can take care of this (universally agreed upon week point on all GS bikes of the day) problem. And if you want to, instead, go with a shunt RR as a replacement, go for it. I don't know if the science is settled, or ever will be. Go ahead and keep debating it. I actually learn a little with most of new posts here. Peace to all, respectfully.
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Later, when headlamps were legislated to Always On, Suzuki just put a jumper on at the connector to the headlight switch rather than redoing their factory harness. It's a bit odd but it allowed them to keep using the same R/R too. In and of itself, electrically, it shouldn't matter-like an appendix. I don't see anyone leaving it in when they put on their fancy R/R so I can't see that anyone has really proved it's evil. Though granted, originally, it certainly added a vulnerability at the light switch contacts.
It's hard to pinpoint a single cause of Suzuki's "bad charging" when a switch or no water-in-the-battery and other things common to all motorcycles are mixed in. But I don't see complaints about Series R/Rs so be happy.
It's hard to pinpoint a single cause of Suzuki's "bad charging" when a switch or no water-in-the-battery and other things common to all motorcycles are mixed in. But I don't see complaints about Series R/Rs so be happy.
merely curiousities...and there's nothing I know particularly bad with a Series type.....It's just that when people say things like "too much power shunted to R/R" I can't help thinking, "but If you run your heated vest and handlebar grips all winter, what difference is that from "shunting"? I haven't seen any problem myself and a Series R/R won't make any difference if I did. The over-arching assumptions are quite annoying and the "proof" seems too tailored to the "solution"
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Well, I didn't say any of those things, and the only accessory I continuously run is a volt-meter/dual USB dodad that charges my phone. I have it wired to a extra wire in the headlamp bucket that is switched on with the ignition. I will probably get some heated gear in the near future to plug in to the additional USB port. What little I know of the charging system, it's symptoms, troubleshooting, and remedies came mostly from posplayr and steve. I miss them both. My charging system saga is linked in my signature.
