How to avoid Starter Clutch Disaster Modification

[Matchless]

Hi Posplayr,
Thats definitely an excellent guide. I hope that those who do the wiring mod post the results as this may help with automating the process.

I have doodled up a small diagram for a small electronic module that can do all of this automatically. Its still in beta design phase and I only did it to get all the thoughts together about what it is supposed to do. This will then also include the coil relay mod at the same time.

If you are interested I can email it to you, just remember it is still beta, not tested, not final, maybe even has some oversight in it. As there are still one or two things that are not final, but I need to put one together first and do some bench testing. I will appreciate any inputs or ideas. I am not an electronics fundi so my approach may be a bit old fashioned.

 

[posplayr]

Matchless

Matchless

I have doodled up a small diagram for a small electronic module

There are many ways to accomplish delay; I was trying to avoid epoxy covered bugs (upside down IC's) and the like. There are plenty of switches out there. It is a matter of finding something suitable:

* extended temperature range (-40 to +85 degC)
*1-10 sec delay
* with a built in 5 amp capacity relay
* "power on make delay".

Here are various DIY schematics
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page2.htm


Power-On Time Delay Relay


Here's a power-on time delay relay circuit that takes advantage of the emitter/base breakdown voltage of an ordinary bi-polar transistor. The reverse connected emitter/base junction of a 2N3904 transistor is used as an 8 volt zener diode which creates a higher turn-on voltage for the Darlington connected transistor pair. Most any bi-polar transistor may be used, but the zener voltage will vary from about 6 to 9 volts depending on the particular transistor used. Time delay is roughly 7 seconds using a 47K resistor and 100uF capacitor and can be reduced by reducing the R or C values. Longer delays can be obtained with a larger capacitor, the timing resistor probably shouldn't be increased past 47K. The circuit should work with most any 12 volt DC relay that has a coil resistance of 75 ohms or more. The 10K resistor connected across the supply provides a discharge path for the capacitor when power is turned off and is not needed if the power supply already has a bleeder resistor.





http://www.circuitdb.com/show.php?cid=25

http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/relaytim2.asp

http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/relaytim.asp

http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/ampdelay.html


I'm still looking for a source for some cheap surplus delay on relay. Most seem to be VAC and make on break delay prices start around $25 and up. I have found a fixxed 1 sec delay and maybe that is all that is required for about $20.

Still looking for the links now.

Posplayr

 

[posplayr]

Option #4 progress update

Option #4 progress update

I just ordered 4 of these. $17.50 a piece. There are still 12 left. I looked on Ebay and you might be able to find something instead. I like new matching parts for modification and this seems to fit the bill although the temperature range is a little low for under the gas tank (+55 deg C is 131 degF). Might have to locate near the starter solenoid; will check it out how hot it gets towards the back of the gas tank.

It is DPDT so it will nicely integrate with the dual coils and provide the coil relay mod in a single part.

Edit: A little tricker than I thought. I'm hoping to only have to use one additional relay.

Posplayr
Potter & Brumfield CUH-42-30010 24 VDC Time Delay Relay, DPDT 11 Amp $17.50
http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1419


You can find the spec sheet here:
Compact Time Delay Relay


Case: Enclosed
Contact Configuration: DPDT, 2 Form C
Coil: DC
Info: Time Delay on Operate; 1.0 SEC to 10 SEC Use External Resistor
Terminals: 0.187 Push On
Coil Voltage: 24
Poles: 2
Contact Rating: 11 Amp 240 VAC, 1/3 HP 120 VAC
RoHS/ELV Compiance History: Not ELV/RoHS compliant
Approved Standards: CSA Certified, UL Recognized

Environmental Data​

Temperature Range: Storage:

-55?C to +85?C.

Operating: ​

-10?C to +55?C.​

Contact Data @ 25​

?C

Arrangements: ​

2 Form C (DPDT).

Material: ​

Silver-cadmium oxide alloy.

Rating: ​

10A @ 30VDC or 277VAC, resistive; 1/2 HP @ 250VAC;

1/3 HP @ 120VAC.

Expected Mechanical Life: ​

10 million operations.

Expected Electrical Life: ​

100,000 operations, min., at rated load.

Initial Dielectric Strength

Between Open Contacts: ​

500V rms, 60 Hz.

Between All Other Conductors: ​

500V rms, 60 Hz.

Input Data @ 25​

?C

Voltage: ​

24 & 120VAC and 12 & 24VDC.

Power Requirement: AC Types: ​

Typically less than 3 VA.

DC Types: ​

Typically less than 3 W.

Transient Protection: ​

Yes.

Reverse Voltage Protection: ​

Yes.​

 

[Matchless]

Yes,
That looks like a good proposition! Getting something like that out here is just about impossible and our high exchange rates and shipping will cost an arm and a leg. Makes experimenting an expensive game.
Please keep us/me in the loop as to your progress and tests.
I have just had an equipment delivery for a project that is long overdue and as said earlier this will have to go on the back burner for me at least for a while.
P.S. I actually looked at that same timer on the web by Bill Bowden and used his concept to see if a usable item can be made, but a reliable proven item is always much better.
Hope you get it sorted.

 

[posplayr]

Matchless

Matchless

I updated the first post with new schematics, it was a bit of a twister but I think it should work. I will test this circuit when the parts arrive. I had to add the second relay and two diodes. The first relay is for control with some diode anding logic to control the output relay that incorporates the ignition coil modification.

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/GS1100E/Rapid%20Rays%20Starter%20Button%20Mod_RevC.pdf


I'll do the timing diagram and install pictures once the design is verified as well.

Posplayr

If you can think of an easier way, let me know. This is on the back burner now till I get the parts.

 

[Matchless]

Nice compilation you put together! I am off to bed now and have printed a copy, will check it out, its midnight here and after studying a Kenwood manual my head is spinning!

PS. The relay you referred to says 24VDC some work down to less than 12V, but not all.

 

[posplayr]

Crap

Crap

Yea, I got the wrong relays; I guess prototyping is expensive even on this side of the pond. Drat it only works down to 20V. OK resume the search.


Edit, here is teh correct one from Digikey for $141.52
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/760446-relay-time-delay-dpdt-10a-12vdc-clh-41-20120.html


Edit:

OK I found these for $7.50 a peice. I dont know what they are can't find a data sheet but they appear correct??

http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1305&MMP=1013718494



3.5 - 25.6 VDC Relay, SPDT 1 Amp 12 - 280 VAC Case: Enclosed
Contact Configuration: SPST
Coil: DC
Info: Solid State Time Delay, 0.1 to 10 Seconds
Terminals: PC Socket
Coil Voltage: 3.5 - 25.6 VDC
Poles: 1
Contact Rating: 1 Amp 12 - 280 VAC
Potter & Brumfield OAT-10010S


Pos

 

[Steve]

Are you just looking for an SPST (or SPDT) relay that is rated for constant duty?
Try this one from Parts Express.

.

 

[Steve]

I was joking about that mod, there are already three switches on the handlebars to work with.

Well, I had to ask because there are GSs newer than the ones around our house that I don't know about, and my Wing has a rather convoluted interlock system.
It will start in neutral without pulling the clutch, but if it's in gear you have to pull the lever.
If it is in any gear but neutral, the engine will die if you put down the side stand.
It also will not start if the reverse lever is engaged.
The '88-'94 models would allow the starter to operate if the kill switch was off. That was changed in '95 so the starter would not work with the kill switch off.

I just did not know if Suzuki had adopted any of these items. 8-[

.

 

[posplayr]

Steve

Steve

I had ordered this one over looking the fact that it was 24V rather than 12V (Matchless pointed this out). It takes 20V to activate the 24 V so it wont work on 12 v systems. I'm looking for a relay with a "delay before make"


Potter & Brumfield CUH-42-30010 24 VDC Time Delay Relay, DPDT 11 Amp $17.50
http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index...OD&ProdID=1419



Check out the timing diagram in the spec sheet here:

Compact Time Delay Relay

There are a ton of 24V and 120/240VAC time delay relays but very few 12V ones.

I have some on order but I'm not sure if they have the correct functionality $7.50 a piece. compared to what is typically $50-60 surplus and $100+ retail.

Posplayr

 

[Matchless]

Posplayr,
I had a look at your untested #4 solution last night. In the write up I assume a typo "The OR-Pin30 is NC when not energised" This should read NO as 87 & 30 closes when relay operates.

The diagram you used for the delay relay is most likely not the same as the normal 12 VDC relay pin layout. I am assuming that the Orange wire shown to pin 87a is the +12 V positive "Supply voltage" and the Yellow/Green from the solenoid/starter switch is the "Trigger". The delay relay must "latch" to keep OR operated when the motor is running. Not sure if such a delay relay can stay operated indefinitely.

The first problem that may crop up is that you are operating 2 relays in series, thus halving the current through each. Some relays may not like this. That is assuming the delay relay has the same standard coil as the OR relay with no other components built into its path to the trigger. If this is in fact a solid state delay relay the chances are good that you have components on those leads and may not get good current flow to operate OR in that way. The other issue is that the a false trigger (Positive) via OR coil and D1 may start up the timer before the starter button is pressed
Then the second or third start. After the first start the engine dies, then the circuit must go back to its first state to allow the exact same process for the next starting attempts. If this is not done, only the first start has the timing delay.
Good luck with locating workable relays.

 

[srsupertrap]

Option #2 Ergo Question

Option #2 Ergo Question

Final result after reassembly is that you have all of the exactly same stock functionality except with the key on, you can crank the starter without energizing the coils. (by having the kill switch off). You can also do as normal, turn on the ignition, turn on the kill switch and the bike will crank as normal.

If you want to take the precaution to avoid kick back, then

a.) Ignition Key on
b.) Kill switch off
c.) Crank with the starter button
d.) after two or three revolutions switch on the kill switch.

This is basically an implementation of option #2 but unlike option #1 only requires wiring changes in the switch and not anywhere in the harness. Also stock functionality is retained and the engine can not be cranked with the key off, but the kill switch can be controlled to only energizer the coils when wanted and independent of starter activation.

How did/does Step A thru Step D work from an ergonomic standpoint? or put another way do you release your hand from the throttle while holding the starter button & switching on the kill switch?

 

[posplayr]

srsupertrap

srsupertrap

The ergonomics is perhaps unfamiliar but not bad. Other than standard right hand position on the throttle with thumb on the starter switch, you reach with the left hand and push the kill switch once the engine is spinning nicely. I can get some nice startups with virtually no noise from the starter.


Of course once the ignition switch is on in step a.) you dont need to hold it.

The only thing different from a standard engine start is you reach across your body with the left hand and turn "ON" the kill switch while cranking with right thumb. Hold the throttle a little if required,; On my bike I put in a little choke and so no throttle is required. When worm neither is required.

Posplayr

 

[posplayr]

Matchless

Matchless

Well, OK

I did the schematic real quick just using the same symbols I already had. I kind of freaked because after assuming all I needed was a delay relay, I couldn't figure how to make it work. I'm basically trying to use simple parts to avoid a PC board( where I would have to get more professional help).


I'll take a look again but it seems that this may be a difficult modification if there are false fires that can occur. I was assuming that the +12V has to be maintained in order to get the delayed output. I'm not sure how these parts are implemented but if it is a thermal or current charge configuration then false triggers should not be as much of a problem.

I'm off to work so I'll see what you might suggest for an alternate.

Posplayr

 

[srsupertrap]

Posplayr

Posplayr

The ergonomics is perhaps unfamiliar but not bad. Other than standard right hand position on the throttle with thumb on the starter switch, you reach with the left hand and push the kill switch once the engine is spinning nicely. I can get some nice startups with virtually no noise from the starter.

Posplayr

My GS1000 requires the clutch lever to be pulled in. I take it you already rewired that switch?

 

[posplayr]

srsupertrap

srsupertrap

They may have been rewired, but neither of my bikes requires that. Unless you want to short out your clutch switch, you might have to wait for the automatic option #4 solution.

Posplayr

 

[Matchless]

Hi posplayer,
Have you looked at the starter mod any further yet? I have sketched up my idea and it seems like it can be built on a small PC board with 3 relays and will be about the size of the igniter or flasher control. OK, not tested at all yet and quite a simple schematic. No real fancy parts at all.
Hopefully I will get some parts together during the next month or so and do a bench test.

 

[posplayr]

Matchless

Matchless

Too much work spent and not much progress

I tried various design options with simple relays and then simple logic but no joy. Basically a delay relay doesn't get you very far. What is needed is basically a way of controlling the output relay with the kill switch but, being able to disable that same output relay during and initial startup delay as initiated by the starter button.

Following this design requirement, you need to perform some type of logical combining or the kill switch input with the active delay. While some of this logical combining can be done with a pair of relays, and some diodes, finding a 12 delay relay was rather expensive and almost none were found from cheaper sources.

I explored trying to design a circuit using Diode Resistor logic (DR), Diode Transistor (DT) logic using both positive and negative logic but ultimately concluded that there were going to be too many parts to be a simple solution for fabrication. Since I already have a long stick of small
leadless carrier PAL chips and 5V linear regulators, it would actually be simpler/cheaper for me to design a circuit using PAL chip an RC delay and a output FET to either control another standard BOSH relay or replace the BOSH and do the whole thing and control the current to the ignition coil directly.

I did receive some 3.5-26V make delay relays from ebay but they are FET type inputs so would not work in the simple relay configurations contemplated earlier.

Bottom line for now is the option #2 mod works and I have too much else to get done (finishing my GS1100ED) to worry about it anymore. There ultimately may be little benefit to auto mating this as startup seems to be optimized by controlling the coils manually so a simple delay would not be best even if it is easiest from a user standpoint. I have shelved this for now. If you get it to work, let us know how a fixed delay works.

Posplayr

 

[Matchless]

posplayr,
Thanks, it sounds if you have really tried. I was hoping you would come up with a working solution we could use.

If anyone else has any interest in this, especially someone with some electronic knowledge, just email me and I will gladly send you my untried schematic and PC board diagram for a possible solution to automate the process that posplayr has nicely summed up earlier. Unfortunately I will not get around to trying this for a while.

 

[srsupertrap]

Re: Matchless & Posplayr

Re: Matchless & Posplayr

Too much work spent and not much progress . . .

Bottom line for now is the option #2 mod works and I have too much else to get done (finishing my GS1100ED) to worry about it anymore. There ultimately may be little benefit to auto mating this as startup seems to be optimized by controlling the coils manually so a simple delay would not be best even if it is easiest from a user standpoint. I have shelved this for now. If you get it to work, let us know how a fixed delay works.
Posplayr

I think Option #2 is the best bet for the majority of GSer's with big bore motors and other high performance mods; it's fairly straight forward to implement with some careful soldering.

I have a unrelated tool question which you guys probably know being EE's & Tech's and such: Can I purchase a set of Terminal Pin Pushers to remove the electrical terminal connections from their respective GS terminal housings? This relates back to my first thread on the GS Forum which asked where can you find the same colored wire as the OEM harness. Well I found a used harness and I have been cleaning up my original harness ever since. If I was able to push the spring loaded pins out of the housings I could further reduce the number of splices. I know Amp makes a round set but the GS uses a combo of round and flat terminal ends.

Any suggestions?