Super Series R/R Market Survey

[posplayr]

Looks nice! I'll have to keep an eye on my Electrosport, if it ends up going toasty, I'll have to try one of these out. And anything that can help a motor run cooler here in Phoenix is worth considering.

Just to be clear, the R/R runs very cool as it has a 40 amp capacity, but the big benefit is the cool stator as it is not being SHORTED out by the SHUNT R/R.

Hopefully HP testing in July.

 

[salty_monk]

Jim,

How does it "switch off" the current without affecting the wave? I know you told me that the "turn it off with a headlight switch" approach is not a good one as it affects the wave form (although with an FET I did get a stable voltage of 12.7v with a dead stator leg).

Presumably on a long run at +5,000 RPM you could switch off a leg to cut current generation to help out? Wouldn't that be a cheap (not as effective) option?

Dan

 

[posplayr]

Jim,

How does it "switch off" the current without affecting the wave? I know you told me that the "turn it off with a headlight switch" approach is not a good one as it affects the wave form (although with an FET I did get a stable voltage of 12.7v with a dead stator leg).

Presumably on a long run at +5,000 RPM you could switch off a leg to cut current generation to help out? Wouldn't that be a cheap (not as effective) option?

Dan

Dan,
When you turn off one complete leg, the 3 phase is not balanced and so there is alot of ripple. That is certainly not as objectionable as burning a stator. Unless you have a scope you probably will not see that ripple. The R/R will still regulate so that the average output is correct.

The operation of the series and shunt regulators are similar and as viewed from the battery they probably look identical althought the low RPM voltage is higher with this SERIES R/R. The big difference is when the stator is disconneted from the battery. The SHUNT disconnects when it shorts the windings and the SERIES litterally just disconnects. The both operate on a cycle by cycle basis which is fast, balanced and without a scope you dont see the ripple.

So basically if you want to modulate a light switch connected stator leg it would help. I have other things to do when riding.

These are only about $175 delivered ( from the vendor I mentioned) so they are not that much more than an Electrosport and the savings on stators and hassle will more than make up for any extra initial cost.

 

[Nessism]

Question Jim:

If the stock stator is something like 280 W (.4 HP), how can this new fangled R/R save 10 HP?

 

[posplayr]

Question Jim:

If the stock stator is something like 280 W (.4 HP), how can this new fangled R/R save 10 HP?

Ed,
280 Watts must be a rating at low RPM, as the output power is actually a squared function of RPM. I'm not sure yet what the limit is as there are likely some magnetic losses that eventually round off the square power law.
290W = to approx 14.5V x 19 amps. Looking at the table the stator can probably supply that type of current to the load at something just over 2500 RPM depending upon R/R and stator combinations. Note even without regulations, there is approximately as much power lost in the stator due to heat as there is power lost in the R/R and the GS electrical system.


As a for instance we know that a typical R/R output is about 14 amps at 14.5 by the time we get to 2500 RPM and there is no regulation (I have observed this) just rectification in the diodes.

That means that
203W = 14Amps x 14.5V is delivered to the GS electrical
Figure 1.1V drop per diode or about
29 W = 14 amps x 2.2 V is consumed in the full wave rectifier.

That is a total of approx 240 W for which there is probably a comparable amount dissipated in the stator so we have close to 500W total power generated at 2500 RPM. If the square law holds, then there is 2500 watts at 5K RPM but still only 203W going to the GS electrical. The R/R doesn't really a lot hotter in regulation because the SCR shorts removing one of the diodes and lowering. So as a simplification that the SHUNT regulator forces the rest of the 2500-240 = 2K watts to dissipate as heat in the stator. Another 40% rise in RPM to 7K RPM and the power has doubled again now 2*2500-240 = 4750 Watts in the stator. That is why the stators get burnt up.

When I has my starter out, I even noticed bluing on the tip of the starter gear.

I summarized the power calculations here.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1221084&postcount=1

In the spreadsheet posted, I approximated the effects of the R/R conversion efficency, the stator and load resistance, supposed 20% busted output from an electrosport stator as well as the ideal squared law characteristic.

I plan to do some measurements using a current clamp next weekend. My scope will calculate the instantaneous power in the stator and I should be able to confirm these calculations. If Bruce can get a dyno arranged, I want to do back to back tests on the dyno to see what the rear wheel Hp benefit is as well.

 

[salty_monk]

Jim,

I agree regulating a switch by yourself would not be much fun - just wondered if it was a workable idea in principal. I won't be doing it as a modification on my bikes....

So essentially the Series regulator uses an "electronic switch" for want of a better phrase to cut the stator output lines at incredibly fast speed.

Dan

 

[bwringer]

Bottom line this is a very nice unit, my bike is running even cooler just going 4-5K RPM and I can put and hold my gloved hand over the stator cover (which was painful before).

Less heat in the stator? This sounds VERY, VERY promising... :clap:


Hard to believe the Compu-Fire people haven't really considered metric bike applications.

 

[posplayr]

Jim,

I agree regulating a switch by yourself would not be much fun - just wondered if it was a workable idea in principal. I won't be doing it as a modification on my bikes....

So essentially the Series regulator uses an "electronic switch" for want of a better phrase to cut the stator output lines at incredibly fast speed.

Dan

exactly

The SERIES runs at the same speed as the SHUNT. Both look at the instantaneous sine waves of the three phase and either:

Short the stator winding (for the SHUNT R/R)
Open the stator winding (for the SERIES R/R)

Obviously opening the winding produces less current in the stator so it doesn't heat as much. The SERIES is also implemented such that the full wave rectifier is integrated with the series control so the voltage losses are less and so it will produce a higher voltage at lower RPM. I was able to get over 14V below 1500 RPM. I would say it is at least 1 volt higher than a Honda for example.

The big deal is the heat and Horse power loss are now gone. This setup is more efficient than an alternator.

 

[posplayr]

Hard to believe the Compu-Fire people haven't really considered metric bike applications.

I was surprised about that as well. I asked both Cycle Electric and Compu-fire and neither were interested in getting into the market. The Harley crowd is not bothered in the least with a $200 R/R. They swap out perfectly good ones to get chrome ones (both are shunt).

There are so many manufactures of these SHUNT devices because they are so simple to make. I suspect the cost to import is under $20 and you pay $100-$120 retail.

The SERIES is much more sophisticated as it requires precise timing of the SCR on off signals to achieve regulation. I have not been able to find an off the shelf part to do the control yet (3 phase synchronous rectification and voltage control without an inductor ), but obviously it is being done.

SERIES control is how the old mechanical regulators used to work for controlling the field of a generator. Other than SERES control these newer devices don't have much resemblance.

It would be nice if Compufire repackaged for a metric bolt spacing, but not sure they see any opprotunity in the metric market.

 

[posplayr]

I pulled my pluggs and they looked pretty rich. Turns out mine were 145 Mikuni and not 147.5 like I thought. Also the DJ needles were already at 3 1/2 from the bottom. Bill an I moved them all to 4 1/2 from the bottom and the things still runs well. Will probably pick up some 142.5's and try and drop down on the outers depending on how it looks.

Seems I have richened up since my temperature has dropped so much from the sprayer and series R/R. Temp gauge never gets over 210 degF and around here it is usually closer to 180-190 degF MAX.

Also I did not completely drain the oil but still had a 1/2-3/4 quart in when I pulled the stator. I topped it back off and we did about a 20 mile quick ride. OIL STILL LOOKS LIKE HONEY.

 

[TheCafeKid]

I pulled my pluggs and they looked pretty rich. Turns out mine were 145 Mikuni and not 147.5 like I thought. Also the DJ needles were already at 3 1/2 from the bottom. Bill an I moved them all to 4 1/2 from the bottom and the things still runs well. Will probably pick up some 142.5's and try and drop down on the outers depending on how it looks.

Seems I have richened up since my temperature has dropped so much from the sprayer and serier R/R. Temp gauge never gets over 210 degF and around here it is usually closer to 180-190 degF MAX.

Also I did not completely drain the oil but still had a 1/2-3/4 quart in when I pulled the stator. I topped it back off and we did about a 20 mile quick ride. OIL STILL LOOKS LIKE HONEY.

Huh. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Lower operating temps would lean the motor, not richen it. The hotter it gets the richer it gets. At least that's what I've always been taught. Which is why you have an enrichening circuit to start the bike from cold ( not a true "choke" as it were) when's the last time you cleaned your pods? ;p
btw my oil temps rarely hit the high side of the 210 mark. Ofcourse I'm not runnng the bore kit either. In fact, durring cooler months I sometimes cover my cooler with foil to assure the bike gets to temp. The oil needs to hi temp to boil the condensation out of it....

 

[TheCafeKid]

And just to clarify, when I say hotter this is assuming you're not getting hot from running horribly lean. Check it out. If you're on the slightly lean side, when the bike is cold, the symptoms are worse. Fuel sticks to the cylinder walls/intake etc due to condensation. If you're slightly lean the bike will get better as it warms up. If you're rich, the bike will start to slog and feel mushy and wet the hotter it gets... Just observations. Not arguing.

 

[posplayr]

And just to clarify, when I say hotter this is assuming you're not getting hot from running horribly lean. Check it out. If you're on the slightly lean side, when the bike is cold, the symptoms are worse. Fuel sticks to the cylinder walls/intake etc due to condensation. If you're slightly lean the bike will get better as it warms up. If you're rich, the bike will start to slog and feel mushy and wet the hotter it gets... Just observations. Not arguing.

so explain black plugs in combination with a 50 deg F temperature drop.
Eaarlier I had planned on increasing the mains and retarding the ignition because the plugs were showing signs of predetonation on a day I went to the Rock Store and the bike got a little hot.

Bill's 1230 is running 152/150's mikuni's and his plugs look perfect (almost like they were out of the box) but his temperature is also about 30-40 degF higher than mine. I think he also said he was getting below 30 MPG now. I'm using my stock gauge, and Bill has a VDO mounted.

So my conclusion is a rich mixture at high temperature helps to cool the engine and allows you to get lower gas mileage thinking everything is running fine. The extra heat helps to burn the cooling gas and keeps the plugs clean.

Besides the diff in bore size my head was much more aggressively ported by Terry. As mentioned before there are the cooling mods.

 

[salty_monk]

Josh - If the 1000ES is anything like the 750ES you shouldn't need to cover the cooler as there is a temperature operated plunger in the oil pan that controls flow of oil up to the cooler like a thermostat on a water cooled system.

Dan

 

[Guest]

Oil Squiter

Oil Squiter

Nice squiter there Pos. Did you all know that teh Busa has a squiter for cooling the stator? See, the rotor has holes in it and no starter system to block the oil. Oil comes from the back side of case to cool the stator as the rotor turns opening up holes. I belive my GSXR1000 also has the same. Though, if the stator ran cooler and produced less heat on top of this, then it would really be nice.
Laters
G

 

[koolaid_kid]

Has anyone looked into reverse engineering these? It seems to me that the parts cost should be far less than the retail price. I don't mind paying for someone else's expertise, but $200 seems a bit much to me.
Parts lists, schematics, etc. would certainly be helpful.

 

[TheCafeKid]

Josh - If the 1000ES is anything like the 750ES you shouldn't need to cover the cooler as there is a temperature operated plunger in the oil pan that controls flow of oil up to the cooler like a thermostat on a water cooled system.

Dan

Naw Dan. The 1100E/ES didn't come with a cooler stock so I am not sure it has a thermostat or the like that I'm aware of. I'll have to look or ask around, it's possible I suppose they did but I don't know. I do know that a quick spritz of water on the cooler will drop the oil temp by half almost immediately. So that's something to consider if you're stuck in traffic on a super hot day.

 

[posplayr]

Has anyone looked into reverse engineering these? It seems to me that the parts cost should be far less than the retail price. I don't mind paying for someone else's expertise, but $200 seems a bit much to me.
Parts lists, schematics, etc. would certainly be helpful.

I'm an engineer and had my own company producting H/W and software and I have looked into it but it just doesnt make economic sense to redesign when there is such a nice part avaliable. If you are a student and want to do it as a hoppy, and your labor is free (because you will probaly spend 200 hours if you get help) you are probaly also going to be looking at a kluge design which is much larger than this one. This is a electronic design/ thermal design and packaging problems.

If you knew you could sell 1000 minimum, then I would probaly go ahead and do it.

I would it would take between 80-120 hours to put together a build to print package that has been tested. Typical billing rates for engineering are almost always over $100 per hour. So you are looking at a minimum of $10K to design such a thing in NRE (non recurring engineering) and then you can start producing them how many you want to buy?

To produce 1000 units would still probably cost you $50 per unit. So figure $10 per unit NRE plus the $50 you are looking at a whole sale cost of $60. Put them on sale on E-bay for $100 give ebay 10% and you are netting $30 per unit ($30K) for a part time job and $60K investment. It would probably take 6-12 months to sell them. I make a lot more money than that in salary and there is no risk.

If there is someone that is an experienced power supply guy and they want a hobby with a moderate risk business proposition then maybe.

Thats enough of the business plan to realize it would take a significant commitment to do a redesign and $170 delivered for a nice commercial product looks great to me.

 

[koolaid_kid]

Naw Dan. The 1100E/ES didn't come with a cooler stock so I am not sure it has a thermostat or the like that I'm aware of. I'll have to look or ask around, it's possible I suppose they did but I don't know. I do know that a quick spritz of water on the cooler will drop the oil temp by half almost immediately. So that's something to consider if you're stuck in traffic on a super hot day.

I studied the oil flow on the 1100E. All oil goes to the filter on a stock 1100E via built-in channels. Using the 1150 oil filter cap blocks off a portion of the oil flowing to the filter, causing it to go through the oil cooler lines, then back to the filter. No thermostat is in-line. A thermostat would be nice, but it would have to be external, mounted below the cooler.
On the plus side, using the stock configuration with an 1150 oil filter cap eliminates the cludged methods, such as going behind the cylinders, or tapping the stock 1100E oil filter cap (pretty fugly, IMHO).

 

[posplayr]

Nice squiter there Pos. Did you all know that teh Busa has a squiter for cooling the stator? See, the rotor has holes in it and no starter system to block the oil. Oil comes from the back side of case to cool the stator as the rotor turns opening up holes. I belive my GSXR1000 also has the same. Though, if the stator ran cooler and produced less heat on top of this, then it would really be nice.
Laters
G

Wow, I know my 1st Gen GSXR has an alternator and figured all the later model Busa GSXR's would as well. Did not know they were running PM Gens as well.

I mentioned in the other thread they may be an additional cooling effect because I have reduced oil pressure due to the extra flow and less work on the pump due to reduction in pressure.