Solid State Power Box II : Market Research Poll

[posplayr]

Dont forget to vote in the complementary SS Aux Box Poll.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?226602-Solid-State-Aux-Box-Market-Research-Poll

UPDATE: To be more clear about the physical form factor I added the picture above. The screw terminals on this version are fully enclosed inside the case and under cover. The wires enter through a rubber grommet in the side of the case. The ends can then be stripped and tinned to insert into the required connection. wires. The second picture down below is more functional so you see what is going in and what is coming out of the SSPB II.

A quick spray of contact cleaner across the wire holders and you are good to go. Update the protection every 2-3 years and there should be no problem with corrosion. Also since it is all inside of the case you don't get any over spray on other things.

All the critical charging connections are soldered.

As many of you know last year I decided to try my hand a making a commercial product which became know as the Solid State Power Box. It is a solid state power distribution module that replaces a stock GS fuse box and adds a bit of logic to incorporate the equivalent of Ignition , headlamp and accessory relay functions. It is designed and produced to a high standard of reliability and robustness as anyone would expect and want for a replacement to something as critical as your fuse box.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?220602-Solid-State-Power-Box-150-plus-shipping

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?210261-Solid-State-Power-Box

http://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...4-Solid-State-Power-Box-STANDARD-INSTALLATION

In order to make sure that I could sell enough of the units to at least get my money back, I did a semi-custom design to fit into the general GS suzuki fuse box form factor. Generally the SSPB turned out pretty well. I have sold 25 units to date (probably 10-15 have been installed with no returns to date)and I have just recouped my monetary investment, although I'm no where near getting any time value back.

I'm not sure if I will produce any more of the original SSPB as it is just too time consuming and I feel that even the $150 price tag, is pushing the upper levels of the market. In other words, it is priced at a market limiting level, and it is way to complex to do any higher level of production at this price level. So I have debated dropping the whole thing of do a redesign for better market acceptance (i.e. lower price with fewer frills). Also looking at something that could be marketed on ebay.


So at the moment I'm looking at two new designs. One is a cheaper generic version of the fuse box replacement called Solid State Power Box II. It is basically the same as the original SSPB it just has 4 instead of the previous 5 channels and uses screw terminals instead of the 10 pin Molex. There is also a Solid State Aux Box which is not a fuse box replacement but is a device to serve another market for power distributions functions. I will describe that in another thread. The SSPB II and the SSAB are very similar but still distinctly different products.

The SSPB II will still work to upgrade the electronics for any GS, but it will not fit in the stock fuse box locations as the original SSPB. So we are looking at applications where more customization/fabrication is going be needed. In many cases this is not such a big issue as people are finding when then install SH-775 series R/R's they are having to relocate components on their electronics side mounting plant so retaining the stock fuse box position is not necessarily always needed.

The SSPB II is a 2"x3"x1" device (excluding the mounting flange) which compares to about 1.8"x3.8"x1.5" for the original SSPB.

So please vote in the poll and provide any comments on the SSPB or SSPB II you would like to make. Please reserve any comments on the Solid State Aux Box for that thread.

UPDATE: To be more clear about the physical form factor I added the picture below. The screw terminals on this version are fully enclosed inside the case and under cover. The wires enter through a rubber grommet in the side of the case. The ends can then be stripped and tinned to insert into the required connection. wires. The second picture down below is more functional so you see what is going in and what is coming out of the SSPB II.

A quick spray of contact cleaner across the wire holders and you are good to go. Update the protection every 2-3 years and there should be no problem with corrosion. Also since it is all inside of the case you don't get any over spray on other things.

All the critical charging connections are soldered.

 

[Rob S.]

I'm going to run your diagram and other descriptions past my mechanic. (Price is not an object, knowledge, or lack thereof, is.)

My mechanic is of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school.

Aside from the dash warning lights, I've had no electrical problems until a week ago, when my hand brake stopped activating the brake light.

I know you'd like to see a profit, but it seems to me that this is a labor of love. Perhaps we'll do business this winter, perhaps not. In any case, (to quote Don Vito), "I want to congratulate you on your new business and I'm sure you'll do very well and good luck to you. Especially since your interests don't conflict with mine." :biggrin:

 

[Guest]

I am not sure if the original SSPB is a better choice for me or not. I will most likely be adding an electric vest and maybe gloves to my kit and would need to wire them in. Is there an output that would be suitable for that on the SSPB II? I am not really a fan of the screw terminals, can they be used with the usual ring connector as shown on the battery + and single point ground in your diagram?

I know you'd like to see a profit, but it seems to me that this is a labor of love.

I hope posplayr makes a profit, he isn't doing this as a charity. It looks a lot more like a small business than a labour of love to me.


Mark

 

[ShadowFocus603]

Having installed the sh-775 reg on one bike and soon to be 2 I know for a fact that in most cases after the swap the stock fuse box has to be nudged over, if not completely relocated all together. I'll add a pic to this post when there is better light to demonstrate. I also lost the ability to run the fusebox cover which is worrying to a degree. A box that is smaller that offers more flexibility as far as mounting would be far easier to accomodate. Also the $125 asking price is a little more approachable for me with life and everything else as well. Sign me up for the first run Pos. Preferrably with a back plate with no mounting ears if you are planning to offer them as such.

 

[posplayr]

I am not sure if the original SSPB is a better choice for me or not. I will most likely be adding an electric vest and maybe gloves to my kit and would need to wire them in. Is there an output that would be suitable for that on the SSPB II? I am not really a fan of the screw terminals, can they be used with the usual ring connector as shown on the battery + and single point ground in your diagram?



I hope posplayr makes a profit, he isn't doing this as a charity. It looks a lot more like a small business than a labour of love to me.


Mark

The SSPB II has an unswitched fully protected output (10A) . You would have to have a switch that goes off with the ignition. If you changed out all of your signals to LED, then you could run +5 amps on the SIGNAL circuit for heaters and not worry about it.

The SSPB has that 5th switched channel which can be controlled various ways and can supply 10A as well.

Screw terminal are not my favorite either, but for a DIY product where 1 out of 10 can crimp leads for a connector a professional connector requires me to do all of the work. Most all of the fuse box replacements in the market use them. Performance wise there is really no downside provided a little bit of contact cleaner is used.

All of the primary power connections (and grounds) for charging remain optimal (remain the same)as with the original SSPB.

Yes this is to make a little money, at this point I have made $0 bucks an hour for probably 300-400 labor hours work (prototype, design, training materials, assembly test equipment). If I consider typical engineering rates, I'm way in the hole. If I look at it as spare beer money, then things look up

 

[Guest]

You know I would be interested, circumstances beyond my control caused me to miss out on the SSPB.

 

[posplayr]

Having installed the sh-775 reg on one bike and soon to be 2 I know for a fact that in most cases after the swap the stock fuse box has to be nudged over, if not completely relocated all together. I'll add a pic to this post when there is better light to demonstrate. I also lost the ability to run the fusebox cover which is worrying to a degree. A box that is smaller that offers more flexibility as far as mounting would be far easier to accomodate. Also the $125 asking price is a little more approachable for me with life and everything else as well. Sign me up for the first run Pos. Preferably with a back plate with no mounting ears if you are planning to offer them as such.

A big complexity in the design was saying in that original formfactor. So moving to a more conventional 2"x3" box makes everything a lot easier to fabricate. Since there are so many people using this size, I'm hoping the additional market outside of the GS world might be worth pursuing.

At this point I'm not sure that the back plate is even necessary. It makes the unit more substantial for sure, but at only 5Watts dissipated it may not be completely necessary. The enclosures come with plastic mounting flanges.

The question is how much more power does a SSPB dissipate than a OEM plastic fuse box? At least there will not be the hot spots you get like when there is a corroded fuse.

 

[posplayr]

You know I would be interested, circumstances beyond my control caused me to miss out on the SSPB.

I appreciate that. Since I have so much time into this, I'm just looking at a way to do it and make it worthwhile. I kinda got my initial schooling on commercial products now.


This is a competing product that is well done, but that prices converts to about $330 USD

http://motogadget.com/de/elektrik/e...m-unit-digit-tastersteuerung-u-sicherung.html

 

[83GS850L]

It sucks that u are discontinuing the original box, i was hoping this would still be around when i finally go full steam on the GS when my CB is done. I always think the first version of a product is the best before it gets (for lack of a better word) dumbed down.
For my current plans with the GS i only plan to fix it up for a resale and a factory looking mount yet upgraded electronics might be a good selling point. (my plans arent set in stone)

That being said, the smaller new style box, would that be adaptable to say my CB650? it has the fuse panel on the handlebars, and when i hardtail it this winter i plan to move all the wiring that i can to a hidden spot under the seat or near the rear wheel.
I was actually planning on commenting in your original sspb thread to see if i could convert that for use on the CB lol.

I agree with the other comment about u not doing it for free, but for you i think along with making money it did have to do with a labor of love, otherwise u wouldnt have even started the project!

Do what is best for you and your product, by making sspb version 2.0, if that will help u make more money by making it a mass market item rather than specific item to the GS then so be it! (ps when will the 2.0 be available so i can buy one for my CB lol)

 

[wildeye]

POSPLAYR, for me it was not the price, just bad timing, broke my back been out of work 2 yrs now , was looking forward to getting the Original box when i was able to go back to work, and from what i see and read about it you had a lot of work in it and is well worth the 150. you was asking for it , those that bitched about the cost of it did not want it to begin with !!!

 

[Guest]

The SSPB II has an unswitched fully protected output (10A) . You would have to have a switch that goes off with the ignition. If you changed out all of your signals to LED, then you could run +5 amps on the SIGNAL circuit for heaters and not worry about it.

The gear has switches and it is extremely unlikely that i would leave anything I am wearing attached and turned on with the bike not running so that might work. I am running LED signals so I guess using that circuit is a possibility as well.

Screw terminal are not my favorite either, but for a DIY product where 1 out of 10 can crimp leads for a connector a professional connector requires me to do all of the work. Most all of the fuse box replacements in the market use them. Performance wise there is really no downside provided a little bit of contact cleaner is used.

So, do they use the ring connectors or clamp down on the bare wire as I am used to seeing with the screw terminals? I am fine with soldering/crimping/whatever to make quality connections.

Yes this is to make a little money, at this point I have made $0 bucks an hour for probably 300-400 labor hours work (prototype, design, training materials, assembly test equipment). If I consider typical engineering rates, I'm way in the hole. If I look at it as spare beer money, then things look up

I am a consulting engineer myself and believe people should be able to make money with their efforts, whether it is a hobby or not. I hope it works out for you, I appreciate your efforts to help us keep these bikes on the road and modernize the electrics as much as is practical.


Mark

 

[robertbarr]

Keeping in mind, too, that this forum is hardly your 'target market' if you want to generate actual worthwhile income from your efforts. This is about .5% of your market. You're looking at the whole package, from advertising, to production, to QC, to bookkeeping and dealing with the IRS, to shipping headaches, to customer support.

And when the dust settles, it would be nice if you've earned better than minimum wage for your time... but there's absolutely no guarantee of that.

It's always cheery to consider that I could probably earn more money with fewer headaches by getting a part-time job somewhere delivering mufflers, or something equally inane, where someone else handles the details and I just cash a paycheck.

There's also the chance of cultivating a nice little income generator for yourself. I'd think it's primarily a matter of marketing. But with this particular type of product, I don't think there's much tangible return on your effort in keeping it a small-time operation. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't think so.

 

[mikerophone]

I'm interested, that German product does have some nice add-ons as well. I like the m-Button idea and the LED fading blinkers are cool too. I'm considering tinkering with an Arduino too, there are several Arduino "sketches" out there for sequential blinkers and I'd like to do the Head and brake light modulators as well.

But regardless of whether I get a SSPB II or not (have several project bikes going and need to get an engine pulled, fixed and back in the ladies Honda and my daughters car too and winter is coming) with the help that you've given me on this board, I'll offer to print your labels in full color, UV ink 3M die cut vinyl for FREE.

I'm a digital printer by trade and have some pretty damn good printing and cutting equipment. I realize that the black box you show may just be a mockup, but for instance, I could print and cut to the top inlayed hexagonal shape on durable 3M adhesive vinyl and even cut out holes for the LED or screws if needed. When you get closer to that point, hit me up on PM and we'll figure the details out, but honestly I'm more than willing to help with design, print, cut and shipping a bunch of labels to you for this project.

 

[posplayr]

I added a clarification on the screw terminals and how the wires attach in the first post.

 

[posplayr]

It sucks that u are discontinuing the original box, i was hoping this would still be around when i finally go full steam on the GS when my CB is done. I always think the first version of a product is the best before it gets (for lack of a better word) dumbed down.
For my current plans with the GS i only plan to fix it up for a resale and a factory looking mount yet upgraded electronics might be a good selling point. (my plans arent set in stone)

That being said, the smaller new style box, would that be adaptable to say my CB650? it has the fuse panel on the handlebars, and when i hardtail it this winter i plan to move all the wiring that i can to a hidden spot under the seat or near the rear wheel.
I was actually planning on commenting in your original sspb thread to see if i could convert that for use on the CB lol.

I agree with the other comment about u not doing it for free, but for you i think along with making money it did have to do with a labor of love, otherwise u wouldnt have even started the project!

Do what is best for you and your product, by making sspb version 2.0, if that will help u make more money by making it a mass market item rather than specific item to the GS then so be it! (ps when will the 2.0 be available so i can buy one for my CB lol)

I still have a bunch of PCB's for the original SSPB, so it is likely I will make some more in the future.

Basically the flexibility of the SSPB Aux channel(#5) adds a lot of extra work in testing, and I'm not sure there was anybody that actually used it. At this point I'm not using it either.

The extra LED and Buzzer are comfort feedback features that don't do a while lot once the device is installed and working.

The 10 pin molex, was being driven by retaining the original GS foot print. I don't think more than 3 of 25 people wanted to take on the job of crimping, although once you have the hang of it it is actually easier to do that way. So as far as dumbing it down; the screw terminals seem to be what all the other higher end fuse box guys are doing. With a solid state solution, all the wires are hidden inside and so that is actually a clean visual appearance once installed.

I was on the XS650 forum, there was surprising little interest. I put some effort into understanding those electrical systems and how to adapt the SSPB. The SSPB II might be better as it is actually a lower profiles.

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33037

This has less to do with labor of love, but rather exploring the possibility of building different specialized electronic products. In addition just being able to produce a electronics circuit design without having to hire it done was something I wanted to try my hand at. So the time in learning the schematics capture and layout tools, updated enginnering on power distribution and protection circuits, all are useful in doing many smaller projects. All these things I view as paying in tuition for continued education.

 

[posplayr]

POSPLAYR, for me it was not the price, just bad timing, broke my back been out of work 2 yrs now , was looking forward to getting the Original box when i was able to go back to work, and from what i see and read about it you had a lot of work in it and is well worth the 150. you was asking for it , those that bitched about the cost of it did not want it to begin with !!!

You cant get aggravated about what peoples priorities are. It is what it is, and you can't make everybody happy. Anybody that understands the issues, and considers what it would take to improve the electrical situation quickly come to appreciate the SSPB and the price point.

If you don't really understand what the SSPB is and what problems it is addressing, and worse you simply liken the SSPB to inexpensive mass produced, untested chinese electronics you get from ebay, then you just do not see the value.

 

[posplayr]

The gear has switches and it is extremely unlikely that i would leave anything I am wearing attached and turned on with the bike not running so that might work. I am running LED signals so I guess using that circuit is a possibility as well.




So, do they use the ring connectors or clamp down on the bare wire as I am used to seeing with the screw terminals. I am fine with soldering/crimping/whatever to make quality connections.




I am a consulting engineer myself and believe people should be able to make money with their efforts, whether it is a hobby or not. I hope it works out for you, I appreciate your efforts to help us keep these bikes on the road and modernize the electrics as much as is practical.


Mark

Thanks for the words of support, it is inescapable that part of this is a desire to do something "fun" with motorcycles. I would not considers running a production product line at a loss as "fun", so is where I draw the line from considering this a "labor of love".

The signal circuit with blinkers and brakes on can draw as much as 10 amps when the directional is on. IIRC figure on about 1/8th of that with LEDs. So now you are down to 1.2 amps peak.

Here are some pictures from my ED which has standard signal loads. This is a whole bunch of current, more than even the headlamp which after a spike only pulls 5 amps.

I updated the first post to reflect better how the screw terminals (bare or tinned wire ends) would be oriented/configured.

 

[posplayr]

Keeping in mind, too, that this forum is hardly your 'target market' if you want to generate actual worthwhile income from your efforts. This is about .5% of your market. You're looking at the whole package, from advertising, to production, to QC, to bookkeeping and dealing with the IRS, to shipping headaches, to customer support.

And when the dust settles, it would be nice if you've earned better than minimum wage for your time... but there's absolutely no guarantee of that.

It's always cheery to consider that I could probably earn more money with fewer headaches by getting a part-time job somewhere delivering mufflers, or something equally inane, where someone else handles the details and I just cash a paycheck.

There's also the chance of cultivating a nice little income generator for yourself. I'd think it's primarily a matter of marketing. But with this particular type of product, I don't think there's much tangible return on your effort in keeping it a small-time operation. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't think so.

There is a larger market? That really is the question.

It is easy for me to post here and gather opinions from people that have GS's and that also have other bikes. And it is from people that actually work on their bikes so it is valuable feedback even if it is not across the entire unknown market.

The cost to produce 25 units is much higher than the unit price at even 100-200 units. Because of the very limited demand I did everything in house (other than the PCB fab). When it got down to it , customizing the enclosures, outsourcing heat sinks, having PSBs assembled all were just too cost prohibitive at quality 10-25. And without some idea about saleability, there was no reason to commit thousands of dollars to inventory.

The SSAB is more clear; At $125 would it undercut the PDQ-60 substantially so that in my minds is probably the most viable "product" for me to produce and commit to limited production. They are the first to market to and exploit a market for this type of device. So presumably there is some type of market worth pursuing. Granted that is an assumption.

I have been motivated by some of the volume numbers you mentioned on selling o-ring kits and numbers that Reno bruce mentioned with selling ebay oil pressure gauges. Both are largely by word of mouth and internet sales without a lot of advertising cost except if you consider the ebay/paypal costs as "advertizing".

I have been able to sell a device (the SSPB) in large part on peoples confidence that i will help them through the trauma of tearing apart their electrical system. So the support (read hand holding) goes with the territory and is somewhat enjoyable. On the other hand it doesn't make sense to sell someone something that is more than they will ever use and it is just wasting my time building it. Or building something that from an engineering point of view is "better" where as the commercial alternative is perfectly acceptable. In other words delivering more features than the customer can perceive.

I'm not talking about cutting reliability, that has to stay at the highest level. But if a screw terminal can be substituted for a connector with crimped and soldered ends then that is a viable cost cutting option to consider in a redesign.

 

[posplayr]

I'm interested, that German product does have some nice add-ons as well. I like the m-Button idea and the LED fading blinkers are cool too. I'm considering tinkering with an Arduino too, there are several Arduino "sketches" out there for sequential blinkers and I'd like to do the Head and brake light modulators as well.

But regardless of whether I get a SSPB II or not (have several project bikes going and need to get an engine pulled, fixed and back in the ladies Honda and my daughters car too and winter is coming) with the help that you've given me on this board, I'll offer to print your labels in full color, UV ink 3M die cut vinyl for FREE.

I'm a digital printer by trade and have some pretty damn good printing and cutting equipment. I realize that the black box you show may just be a mockup, but for instance, I could print and cut to the top inlayed hexagonal shape on durable 3M adhesive vinyl and even cut out holes for the LED or screws if needed. When you get closer to that point, hit me up on PM and we'll figure the details out, but honestly I'm more than willing to help with design, print, cut and shipping a bunch of labels to you for this project.

The Arduino stuff is very nice educational concept, but is hardly anything you would produce a commercial product around. Not saying they are bad, I bought several for use as test equipment, but for a production device, would spin a custom PCB to realize much more efficient packaging.

If I purse these things, I'll remember to drop you a line. I still have several of the decals that I'm putting on the first revision of the SSPB, but things would have to change with a new enclosure.

This is something I was exploring developing; it tries to integrate various functions into a single device all related to visibility.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...o-Viz-to-get-more-out-of-your-SSPB&highlight=

 

[83GS850L]

I still have a bunch of PCB's for the original SSPB, so it is likely I will make some more in the future.

Basically the flexibility of the SSPB Aux channel(#5) adds a lot of extra work in testing, and I'm not sure there was anybody that actually used it. At this point I'm not using it either.

The extra LED and Buzzer are comfort feedback features that don't do a while lot once the device is installed and working.

The 10 pin molex, was being driven by retaining the original GS foot print. I don't think more than 3 of 25 people wanted to take on the job of crimping, although once you have the hang of it it is actually easier to do that way. So as far as dumbing it down; the screw terminals seem to be what all the other higher end fuse box guys are doing. With a solid state solution, all the wires are hidden inside and so that is actually a clean visual appearance once installed.

I was on the XS650 forum, there was surprising little interest. I put some effort into understanding those electrical systems and how to adapt the SSPB. The SSPB II might be better as it is actually a lower profiles.

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33037

This has less to do with labor of love, but rather exploring the possibility of building different specialized electronic products. In addition just being able to produce a electronics circuit design without having to hire it done was something I wanted to try my hand at. So the time in learning the schematics capture and layout tools, updated enginnering on power distribution and protection circuits, all are useful in doing many smaller projects. All these things I view as paying in tuition for continued education.

Yeah, I understand making the unit cheaper to manufacture to tip the scales back into the black.
Like i said at the time i couldnt think of a better word for it than dumbing it down.

From my experience alot of people will not buy an item if they have to put actual thought into installing it, they want a plug and play product. Thats why bolt on parts are so popular.
I also think by your experience trying to feel things out on the XS forum, people dont understand why they would need such a product till they have a problem to solve.
Not that you are a bad salesman, but i just think many dont realize how fragile and possibly unsafe 25-40 year old wiring can be, yet on every forum a large portion of topics are electrical related, no matter if its a simple or complicated problem.